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About Episode 14

What makes up the "essential Bach?" Lifelong music educator, scholar and author Calvin R. Stapert joins host Bach Talk Ron Klemm to share his unique perspective on J.S. Bach’s unparalleled expressions of faith through music. The Bach Society of Saint Louis Music Director and Conductor A. Dennis Sparger adds to the conversation, as they explore Bach’s deep spiritual connection and how it shaped his compositions.

Transcription

Ron Klemm (00:00)
This is Bach Talk.

That's The Bach Society Chorus from a recent concert singing one of the motets by Johann Sebastian Bach, Fürchte dich nicht, Fear Not, For I Am With Thee. It uses a simple text, in this case from the Old Testament book of Isaiah, and combines it with a hymn that people in Bach's congregation would have known so well, Why should sorrow ever grieve me? Christ is near with his cheer, never will he leave me. It's music that holds a special significance for our guest today.

Hello, I'm Ron Klemm. Welcome to Bach Talk. Calvin R. Stapert is Professor Emeritus at Calvin University in Grand Rapids, Michigan, where he taught music for nearly four decades. Dr. Stapert has authored several books on great composers like Handel and Haydn. One of his books especially intrigued us, for a lot of reasons.

First, its title, My Only Comfort: Death, Deliverance, and Discipleship in the Music of Bach. What does that mean? But perhaps the most unusual aspect of the book is its framework. Stapert uses a historic, reformed confession, the Heidelberg Catechism, and sets it in dialogue with Bach's music, helping us connect with the Leipzig Master's unparalleled artistic expressions of the Christian faith.

The result is a fascinating take on the very essence of J. S. Bach. Now in his 80s, Cal loves to talk about music and about Bach, as he did with us several weeks ago. He joined Bach Society Music Director Dennis Sparger and me from the DeVos Communication Center at Calvin. The genesis of My Only Comfort, as Cal explained, goes way back to articles he wrote for the global tercentenary celebration of Bach's birth in 1985 and to the 250th anniversary of his death in the year 2000.

Calvin Stapert (02:46)
It just so happened at that same time I was teaching a course in Bach and I was preparing a lecture on the motet Fürchte dich nicht. 

And as I was doing this, I thought, that's the first question of the Heidelberg Catechism. What is your only comfort? Fear not, I am with you. You know, there it was. And then I went on to the second question, and what must I know to live and die in this comfort? Well, three things. First, how great my sin and misery are.

Second, how I am set free. Third, how I'm to thank God. I thought, okay, there are Bach cantatas on every one of those categories. And as I was thinking about it, you know, as a child I had grown up with little mnemonic devices for learning the structure of the catechism. One was sin, salvation, and service, which is nice. Another one was guilt, grace, and gratitude. But, maybe I can think of another trio. Death, deliverance, discipleship, and I especially like the discipleship because that's a very prominent theme in Bach's works. So, you know, the following Jesus kind of thing. He uses that in the St. John Passion, different stages of discipleship, starting with a, you know, this eagerness of the new disciple, but eventually knowing that it leads to Golgotha. It leads to bearing your cross. 

Ron Klemm (04:31)
That whole discussion of discipleship is right, it is intertwined with the story of grace. And that's a fascinating thing. So you put all those two things together. There are some people who are listening to us right now and say, oh, wait a minute. Bach wasn't a Calvinist. What are you doing with a Calvinist confession or catechism? You could have used Luther's Small or Large or Augsburg or something like that. What, tell me about that.

You have to confess now. Why, why do you use the Heidelberg catechism? 

Calvin Stapert (05:05)
Well, because I know it so well.

A. Dennis Sparger (05:09)

Good reason. 

Calvin Stapert (05:10)

But, it's Lutheranism and Calvinism don't differ on these basics. We have some important differences, but by and large, I've never really experienced any dissonance between the Calvinist preaching that I've heard all my life and the Bach cantatas that I've listened to over and over again.

They're in tune. So I felt, you know, I'm going with it and I'm, I'm happy to note that the book was reviewed in a number of Lutheran periodicals and there was never any question about the appropriateness of what I did. 

Ron Klemm (05:51)
No one got chastised for that is what you're telling me. Cal, you make a distinction between the essential and the canonical Bach. Why, why, why is that distinction important, do you think? 

Calvin Stapert (06:07)
Well, the distinction comes from an article by Richard Taruskin, Coming to Grips with the Dark Side of Bach. This was an article in the New York Times. And he made that distinction between the essential and the canonical. The canonical Bach is the Bach everybody knows, or everybody that loves music knows.

It's the Brandenburg concertos, the well-tempered clavier. Of the sacred music, it's the B Minor Mass for sure. Maybe the passions, although They're not as well known. 

Ron Klemm (06:42)
Less so. Yeah. 

Calvin Stapert (06:43)
But what's not known at all is what he calls the essential Bach. And that's the Bach that's revealed in the cantatas. 

Ron Klemm (06:51)
Right. 

Calvin Stapert (06:52)
I think that distinction has worn off a bit over time. The cantatas are readily available. There are several.

Ron Klemm (07:03)
Whole sets of recordings. 

Calvin Stapert (07:04)
Whole sets of recordings on YouTube. You can find whatever you want. So it's less crucial now. But then the thing about his essential Bach was the dark side, and so the emphasis was on the sin part of it, you know?

The world is corrupt, you are corrupt, this is, this is it. And, it made me think of a thing that Frederick Buechner said. He wrote a book in which he talks about, sin and grace. And he says in a wonderful nutshell, we are bleeding. There's the dark side, but we've also been bled for. That's the two sides of Bach.

It's not the dark. And the cantatas, both of those sides are there in abundance. 

Ron Klemm (07:59)
You call his cantatas, musical sermons. Most people would say, Oh, that's church music. And Bach, of course, was the ultimate church musician. You call them musical sermons. You want to give me a clue as to why? 

Calvin Stapert (08:13)
First of all, I didn't know I called him that. But that is, that is fairly common. Related to that is the reference to Bach as the preacher, Bach the preacher. Or even more exaggerated, shall we say Bach the fifth evangelist, you know, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Bach. And here, here's where my title comes in. I thought, you know. What would Bach think of being called the preacher?

Well, he'd probably be somewhat flattered, but I said if he wanted to be labeled with one term, it would be Bach the disciple, Bach the follower of Jesus. But there, there is certainly legitimacy to talking about Bach the preacher when you're thinking of the cantatas. Because the cantatas were written for specific worship services on specific days in the church year.

They were always very closely related to the gospel lesson of that day. And they were performed after the gospel reading, before the sermon so it is something like a musical sermon preceding the real sermon spoken by the preacher. There is some legitimacy to that term, but the cantata texts are not just preaching.

There's a variety of things. There's prayer. There's confession. There's Their scripture quotation, they're a mixed bag, and I just sort of browsed through some of them recently, and, for example, one that came to mind right away was one for the first Sunday of Advent, Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland, the Savior of the Nations come.

That's a prayer. The believer is saying, Come, Lord Jesus. But in between, there are other things. There is what you might say, preaching. Der Heiland ist gekommen. The Savior has come. All right? That's, you might say, sermonic. But then at the end, it goes back to prayer. What have you not done for us? Come, Lord Jesus, come to your church.

It sets a little service of its own, prayer, preaching, and response. And then I was looking, what about, are there any texts that are really pretty thoroughly sermon? And I thought of Wer nur den lieben Gott läßt walten, if you but suffer God to guide you if you but trust in God to guide you. Throughout, it really is a sermon on the theme of trust.

If you but trust in God to guide you and place your confidence in him, this is the first stanza, you'll find him always there beside you to give you hope and strength within. For those who trust God's changeless love, build on the rock that none will move. That's the first stanza and that's the text of the first movement of the cantata.

The remaining movements take up the second stanza really kind of line by line. And the choir sings or, or soloist as the case may be sings the the line from the choral and there's what you might call a trope, in addition, a fleshing out of that line. And then the next line. And so on line by line there, there's this quote of the line and then this further explanation, this sermon on that line.

Ron Klemm (12:03)
There you go. 

Calvin Stapert (12:04)
And then I thought, well, what about the other way, where a text is consistently one thing all the way through? And for that one, I thought of Mein Herz schwimmt im Blut one of those texts that Taruskin would have called the dark side. 

Ron Klemm (12:26)
Right, right, right. 

Calvin Stapert (12:27)
My heart swims in blood. 

Ron Klemm (12:29)
Right.

Calvin Stapert (12:30)
That text is entirely confessional. I am a sinner and it elaborates on that all the way through, until the last movement where the redemption comes in and, but it's still confession. My joy, my sin, but then my joy. At my savior having saved me.

Ron Klemm (13:26)

Organist Matthew Gearhart at Peace Lutheran Church in suburban St. Louis with Bach's chorale prelude on Nun komm der Heiden Heiland. We're visiting with Dr. Calvin Stapert, author of My Only Comfort, Death, Deliverance, and Discipleship in the Music of Bach. Along with Bach Society music director Dennis Sparger, I'm Ron Klemm and this is Bach Talk.

Ron Klemm (13:55)

Let's talk a little bit about the musical language that Bach incorporates. There was a lot of word painting going on in his day. It seems to me, correct me if I'm wrong, that Bach just took it to the nth degree and he knew exactly what he was doing. 

Calvin Stapert (14:14) 

Certainly. But that's not the whole story. Word painting, or as it's sometimes referred to as madrigalisms, because it's the kind of thing that grew up, you might say, in the Renaissance madrigals, this making the music imitate the word in some way.

Like if it's high, it's going to be a high note. If it's fast, it's going to be fast notes. And Bach, Handel, the Baroque composers never abandoned that. They never lost an opportunity to paint the word, so to speak, but the word painting is very limited. What words lend themselves to being painted in the music?

There aren't all that many. So what else is involved in, might say, the musical language? Well, there are two things. One is called Figurenlehre, and the other one is called Affektenlehre, the theory of figures, and the theory of affects. Now the theory of affects is an easier one. Affects emotions, that kind of thing.

The kind of thing your piano teacher taught you. You know, major is happy and minor is sad. Now that's of course a very naive example, but, it's that kind of thing. The theorists would even categorize the various dances as to what affect or what emotion was prominent in those dances. So an Alamande and a Gigue would, would have a different affect.

So there's that. That too is somewhat limited. What's more pervasive is the figure in there. The theme. Theory of figures, and that has to do with the theory of rhetoric. Rhetoric is an ancient thing. I mean, it's part of the seven liberal arts. Rhetoric is, is, is big. and it's in a nutshell, it's how to speak or write effectively, movingly and the music theorists borrowed from the rhetoricians, and related to music. But basically, it's doing something in the music that will draw attention to the word or the general thought of the line. Anything like having a very pungent dissonance on the word harsh, or a particular turn in the melody, not necessarily painting the word, but drawing attention to it.

And Bach is full of that. I mean, in a sense, he's full of, full of surprises. And those surprises are, are those that draw your attention to that key word or that key thought. There are other things. There's, there's symbolism. 

Ron Klemm (17:39)
Oh, sure. 

Calvin Stapert (17:40) 

For example, the German Lutheran composers of the time were particularly fond of it.

The musical symbol of the cross is a jagged line that goes up, down, up. 

Ron Klemm (17:57)
Right. 

Calvin Stapert (17:57)
And how is that a cross? Well, if you take, the outer notes of that four-note figure and draw a horizontal line in the upper and the lower notes, and you get the cross. Bach is, is full of these crosses. Another thing is, related to cross, is the crucifixus in the B minor mass.

In the credo, it's precisely in the middle of the whole credo, and not only that, not only is it in the middle but it's framed by a certain pattern of choruses and soloists on each side so that it's what's called a chiastic form, which radiates symmetrically from a center.

A. Dennis Sparger (18:54)
And, what's interesting about that is that you would never notice this in listening to the work as much as studying the work.

Calvin Stapert (19:03)
That's right. 

Ron Klemm (19:05)
Dennis put together a program this past spring based on the chorale. Let's be honest, Bach was connecting with his audience in a major way. Everyone in his congregation knew what these hymns. They were hymns in his day. Was there more to it than that? Was he just trying to connect with people, or was there more to it, or was it a personal thing with him? What do you think about that? 

Calvin Stapert (19:37)
I think it was not only connecting with the people in his congregation, it was connecting to the whole tradition. Bach was a very traditional person. He felt himself to be sort of an upholder of that tradition in the face of the new enlightenment kinds of things that were going on.

And so back to Luther is what he's doing with, with, with those chorales. This is, this is us. And I have two granddaughters that go to a Lutheran school and those kids are still learning those chorales. And they learn all the verses. Now, that can be 10 or 12 or even 15, you know.

Ron Klemm (20:34)
Because these hymns tell a whole story.

Calvin Stapert (20:36)
Yeah. Yeah. But related to that, my thought about connecting with the tradition. Here, the B minor mass comes in, too. He is taking this time-honored, venerable liturgical text that great composers had been setting it through the centuries, and there, he borrows not from the chorales, but from but from the chant, there are a few places where he incorporates a chant melody.

And another thing about his traditionalism, both the credo and the confiteor are in what they called in that day the stile antico, the old style, as opposed to the stile moderno. So again, he's taking this age-old text and, you know, taking age-old music, or what they thought of at the time as old musical styles and, incorporating them in these fantastic works.

In fact, with the B minor mass, it's way at the end of his career that he puts that all together. 

Ron Klemm (21:55)
Right, right.

A. Dennis Sparger (21:55)
And yet throughout that work, he's able to bring in all kinds of musical styles showing that he was aware of everything that was going on and you know, I find this amazing that so many of his works have a very popular feel to them that even modern-day audiences can connect and if you don't mind, I'd like to read back to you just a very short passage from your book. Without my glasses, let me see if I can read all of this. Bach's music can be at once learned and popular, technical and exuberant, disciplined and expressive, strict and free. It seems to me that one of the most beneficial functions Bach's music can perform for our harried, confused generation is to stand as a monumental testimony to the intimate relationship between freedom and law.

Ron Klemm (22:59)
That's pretty good, Cal. 

Calvin Stapert (23:00)
That's pretty good.

A. Dennis Sparger (23:02)
Yes. Yeah. 

Calvin Stapert (23:03)
You know, that has its origins in that 1985 article that I wrote, which was titled, Law and Freedom in the Music of Bach. And so I thought, I think that's worth repeating here.

A. Dennis Sparger (23:22)
Indeed. Yes. 

Calvin Stapert (23:24)
You know, the whole matter of law and freedom. Bach, picks up on that in the Passions, where Jesus is bound. Jesus is bound so that I might be free. That's really one of the central motives in the, in the Passions.

Ron Klemm (24:24)
The Bach Society Chorus and Orchestra, conducted by Dennis Sparger, and the Chorale, Bin ich reich von der Gewichen, from Bach's St. Matthew Passion. Along with Dennis, I'm Ron Klemm, more from Dr. Calvin Stapert straight ahead. This is Bach Talk.

Ron Klemm (24:46)

You made a distinction in the book. Maybe, maybe you don't remember, but, I remember you made a distinction in this book between the oratorial passion and the passion oratorial. Now, first of all, help me figure this out. This sounds like somebody just got the words mixed up. What, what's the difference?

Calvin Stapert (25:13)
Well, the words do get mixed up. The reason for the two versions has to do with being liturgical or non-liturgical. And it's the last word of the pair that determines that. The oratorio passion is the liturgical one, and it's liturgical because it's the passion reading. It's the whole passion story from Matthew or John.

So then the passion oratorio is an oratorio, like a messiah or King Saul or what have you, Elijah. It's a biblical story, but it's told in newly written poetic form to lend itself to choruses and arias.

A. Dennis Sparger (26:05)
And in the case of Handel, they're written for the theater. 

Calvin Stapert (26:08)
And for the theater, absolutely. Yeah, and there are a lot of those. I mean, Handel wrote a, I need to get the words right here. Handel wrote a Passion Oratorioto, a text that several of the Baroque composers of that time used and yes, they were for, they were for the theater, which led to serious issues with Messiah, because, again, Handel wrote it for the theater.

And there were those that said, that music is too sacred for a theater and there were others that said, well, sort of the other way around that.

A. Dennis Sparger (26:56)
At least he presented it to raise funds for the needy. 

Calvin Stapert (26:59)
Well, with Handel, that was. 

Ron Klemm (27:01)
Had a good cause.

Calvin Stapert (27:04)
A good cause.

Ron Klemm (27:05)
But you bring up a really, really good point, something that we could talk about for a long, long time if we wanted to, but there seems to be a separation that, that is increasing between this concept of let's present music in a concert performance, but let's not make it too sacred. That's not cool. And then of course, if we try to do that in a church setting or maybe more of a worshipful, context, then, well, we don't want to make it too, what, elaborate and too secular. Is this sacred, secular division? Is this a problem in the 21st-century world? You could write another book, Cal. 

Calvin Stapert (27:56)
Yeah, well, no, I'm too old for that. Well, I think the sacred-secular divide is more pronounced. this is sacred, this is secular, and never the twain shall. I think it'd be wonderful if, let's just take Messiah, if everybody knows that. It was theater music.

It was, it was entertainment. In fact, when Handel performed his oratorios, he always performed them during Lent. Why Lent? Not so much because it had to do with the suffering and death of Jesus or anything like that. It's because opera was not allowed during.

A. Dennis Sparger (28:52)
Yes, no competition. 

Calvin Stapert (28:54)
You're right. Well, and they had to fill in the concert schedule for those weeks and so that's when the oratorios were performed. So there were those who thought Messiah was too sacred to be performed in a theater and others, that it was too secular to be performed in a church, but, how is that today? I don't know.

A. Dennis Sparger (29:20)
Yeah. At least we don't face that today. 

Ron Klemm (29:22)
Well, here's the thing, In 1941, a professor at Concordia Seminary said, we need to establish. A group, The Bach Society of Saint Louis. We need to establish a performing organization that makes sure that the passions and the B minor mass and the great works of Bach, which are very much essential, are, are indeed performed because we cannot count on the fact that the St. Louis Symphony, God bless the St. Louis Symphony. We love them. We go to the concerts and so on, but we can't assume that they're going to be part of the regular repertory of that, of a group like that. So that's why the Bach Society was established to make sure that these things are, are done, but they're done. in a performance, right? With applause and Dennis comes out and everybody, you know, stands and cheers. And, and, and it's, it's, it's kind of an odd marriage, it seems to me. Do you, do you find that, or am I just way off? 

Calvin Stapert (30:29)
You mean to perform, say, the Passions in a concert hall? 

Ron Klemm (30:34)
Right. 

Calvin Stapert (30:34)
I say more power to you.

A. Dennis Sparger (30:37)
I would agree with that because what, what I, what I find is that if we truly believe that God is all around us, that, you know, whether we're in a church or a concert hall whether it's a worship service or a, performance, you know, with applause from the audience, still the word of God is, is, is being sent out to people, some people who otherwise may not hear it at all and things can be I think people can be touched by that. I, you know, I still remember several years ago when we performed the St. Matthew Passion that one of my orchestra members told me afterwards that she was seated next to someone who said, you know, I don't believe in any of this, but if I ever did, it would be because of this piece. And I realized, you know, the power of, of a St. Matthew Passion, St. John Passion, a Mass in B Minor, the Cantatas you know, even the Brandenburg Concertos, you know, these can reach people in very special ways. It's, it's a part of the evangelism, I think. And, it allows people of many different faiths as well as no faith, to be drawn together. 

Calvin Stapert (31:50)
Yeah, along those same lines, Japan, which is, of course, an almost totally non-Christian country, but the Bach Collegium Japan will perform the St. Matthew Passion every Good Friday to overflow crowds. Masaaki Suzuki, the conductor, says that he's always approached after these, these concerts, people asking him, what's it all about? You know, they, they're, they're moved by it, but they, they, they don't really understand it.

And he said the biggest or the most frequent question or the most frequent source of puzzlement is the whole idea of Christian hope. He says they can't understand Christian hope. In fact, he says, they don't even have a word that could be used. He says, you know, hope is, is a trivial thing, you know, I hope it doesn't rain on our picnic or something like that, you know so, you know, there is something that is connecting. They may not understand it, they may not buy it, but it is connecting. It's a start. 

Ron Klemm (33:21)
I want to end with this. Bach wrote on so many of his works. Most of them I'm told. Three words. What do those three words mean to you? Soli Deo gloria. 

Calvin Stapert (33:39)
Well, they mean to God be the glory. What does it mean to me that Bach put them there? It means a lot to me. It's one indication of his utter seriousness about his faith. It's his seriousness about his vocation. That's the purpose of his vocation, to give God the glory. Another couple of initials that appear sometimes, not nearly with the frequency of the SDG, at the beginning of works.

A. Dennis Sparger (34:18)
Yes. 

Calvin Stapert (34:19)
JJ. Jesu Juva. Jesus help. There's a prayer at the beginning, a prayer for help, and a prayer at the end, give God the glory. Now, you know, some will dismiss this because, other composers put it in theirs well', they might have been serious about it too. I don't know. But, you know, who are, who are we or they to judge? But it’s one of those things that I think puts his work at God's service. It's, it's his vocation.

Ron Klemm (35:25)
You're hearing a portion of Jesu, meine Freude, Jesus My Joy, by Johann Sebastian Bach, from a concert performance in May 2024 by The Bach Society of Saint Louis, Dennis Sparger, music director and conductor.

Calvin Stapert's writings, including My Only Comfort, are published by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan, and Cambridge, England. Available at eerdmans.com or wherever you get your books. We spoke with Cal from the DeVos Communications Center at Calvin University in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Special thanks to production manager Kendrick Satterfield there, as well as Keith and Benita Wolters-Fredlund for making it all possible.

Bach Talk would like to hear from you. Will you do us a quick favor? If you enjoy what you're hearing on this episode or any of our previous episodes, we'd really appreciate it if you would take a moment and rate and review our podcast on your favorite platform, wherever you listen. Your feedback helps us reach more listeners, tell our story and keep the conversation going.

If you have comments, questions, or suggestions about Bach Talk for our team or any of our guests, we'd love to hear them. You can fill out a quick and easy comment form on our website at BachSociety.org/Bach-Talk. Or, send us an email directly, BachTalk@BachSociety. org. The associate producer of Bach Talk is Scott MacDonald.

Marketing and technical assistance provided by Andie Murphy and Carissa Marciniak of Right Relations.

Bach Talk is a registered trademark of The Bach Society of Saint Louis. I'm Ron Klemm.

About Episode 13

Melissa Payton’s journey with The Bach Society of Saint Louis began in 2004 as a Soprano Young Artist. Today, she serves as Executive Director and continues to sing in the Chorus as a Principal Singer. Join Bach Talk host Ron Klemm as they explore Melissa’s musical journey, her role within the organization and what makes The Bach Society so special.

Transcription

(00:00) Ron Klemm
This is Bach Talk.

Author Jim Collins reminded us a number of years ago that true leadership doesn't just happen. Rather, it's a process. One which can be a long-term endeavor to move from good to great.

(00:41) Melissa Payton
I think the unique thing too about The Bach Society is it's, it's a professional organization, but there's still so much family and respect within the organization and I think that comes from the top. You know, things are not perfect, but I feel like there's a level of respect that everyone really has for one another in the organization and it really trickles down.

(01:14) Ron Klemm
That's the voice of executive director of The Bach Society of Saint Louis, Melissa Payton. And we're hearing her not just in conversation, but also as a soprano soloist in 2007.

(01:58) Melissa Payton
I think what we have is special. You know, it's, it's very special in St. Louis, but also nationally, just to really understand how dedicated the organization is to longevity and making a mark and making sure that this music is heard and continues to flourish and people continue to know about it and it's continued to be performed because if not us who?

(02:25) Ron Klemm
Hello, I'm Ron Klemm. Welcome to Bach Talk. Today I hope you'll indulge a little self promotion not because we're bragging or begging for attention But because the legacy of The Bach Society of Saint Louis is worthy of attention as a global model. After all, not many choral organizations have been around for 80 plus years.

And leadership has played a key role in that legacy. Current music director and conductor Dennis Sparger has provided the artistic vision since 1986. During his tenure, the administrative side of things has been led by some remarkable visionary people. Executive Director Melissa Payton currently holds that responsibility, a personification of the organization's commitment of promoting from within in that continuing decades long journey from good to great.

Today, let's meet this vital member of the Bach team. Who's been a part of The Bach Society of Saint Louis for? 

(04:00) Melissa Payton
A little over 20 years. 

(04:03) Ron Klemm
Starting as? 

(04:04) Melissa Payton
I was a soprano young artist. 

(04:07) Ron Klemm
Tell me about those days. 

(04:09) Melissa Payton
I was young. I wasn't married. I was thrilled just out of college and I went to school here in St. Louis and I was asked to come back and sing a solo as an alumni.

I wish I could remember what it was. I bet you Dennis remembers. So Dennis, our music director came to that performance. He's so great about getting out and going to so many performances in the city. And he came to that performance and heard me sing and afterward came up to me and said, have you ever heard of The Bach Society of Saint Louis? And I said, no. Growing up in St. Louis my whole life, being involved in a lot of music and singing ever since I was a little girl, I had not ever heard of The Bach Society and he started telling me about our Young Artist Program and how it's so beneficial to young singers. And he invited me to audition.

So I did and he liked me and I started as a young artist in 2004 I think. 

(05:07) Ron Klemm
A couple of things First is that people didn't know about The Bach Society 20 years ago people of your age, college, that has changed 

(05:17) Melissa Payton
I agree.

(05:17) Ron Klemm
Thanks to you and others like you who've made sure that this is a this is a big deal in town and beyond um, I But the other thing is you, uh, got involved with The Bach Society as a young artist, a program that is probably unique to a lot of organizations.

Tell us a little bit about that, about the Young Artist Program. 

(05:39) Melissa Payton
Well, I grew up and majored in vocal performance and thought that I wanted to be an opera singer. And then I realized maybe it's not so glamorous to be traveling the world and living in hotel rooms. I mean, it's pretty cool, but I started thinking about how much I may be away from my family and was dating my now husband at the time.

Um, and what I learned in that experience is that there are a lot of young artists programs and opera companies all over the U.S. and beyond. Um, it's pretty common for a large midsize to large opera company to have a young artists program, but it's rare for choral organizations to have a young artist program.

And what I didn't know as a young singer is, you know, there were so many opportunities to learn about performing operatic repertoire, but the oratorio repertoire, there's not a lot of opportunity for young singers to learn that rep, to cover the solos, to perform it. And so I really felt like this was a unique opportunity that The Bach Society has for young singers to come,

to engage and sing as members of the chorus, to cover these solos, to meet these wonderful soloists that we have coming in from all over the world that are at the top of their game. We had opportunities to perform at fundraising events. We got special coachings and got to participate in masterclasses.

It was a really unique opportunity while also engaging and meeting different singers and educators and conductors in the St. Louis area and making a lot of strong connections that way. So it was a lot of fun. I had so much fun. I remember singing at this one, uh, fundraising event we had, and I think I sang this kind of love song and ended up inviting.

Dennis, the maestro, up on stage and he was a little caught off guard. But do you remember, were you there? 

(07:34) Ron Klemm
I can't, I can't remember the details. 

(07:38) Melissa Payton
I think it was maybe I've got a crush on you or something. I ended up singing that song and, uh, invited him up and he was blushing at first, but you know, Dennis, he's an actor so he ate it up. 

(07:48) Ron Klemm
Oh, he played right along. 

(07:49) Melissa Payton
It's, it's fun to learn to perform in different kinds of situations like that for fundraisers or for small donor events. I remember going to people's houses and singing My Funny Valentine on their doorstep, thanking them for being a donor and it was just a lot of fun for me as a young singer.

(08:07) Ron Klemm
Well, I remember, if you don't mind a personal story, I remember in Powell Symphony Hall singing the, uh, Rutter Magnificat and there was this beautiful soprano singing one of the arias, and I thought, okay, Bach Society's in good shape. 

(08:24) Melissa Payton
That was so fun. Getting the opportunity to sing at Powell Hall for an audience of, you 2000 plus was so just unique and exciting.

I also remember being on stage at Powell Hall and I was, it wasn't that year. It was, I think the prior year there was a tenor soloist myself and maybe one more singer, and it was my turn to sing. We were all seated at that point. So I stood up ready to sing and I'm take a step forward and my, skirt is stuck underneath my chair.

So I take a step forward and get jerked back immediately, right up back up against my chair, and probably looked a little silly on stage. And I thought, okay, well, this is how it goes and then I realized it wasn't my chair, it was the tenors chair that was on my dress so. 

(09:12) Ron Klemm
He wanted to get closer to you. 

(09:14) Melissa Payton
You can't trust those tenors. You know, well, you can't. 

(09:17) Ron Klemm
It could have been a lot worse. Put it that way. Tell us about how you got That involved your schooling and your family and so on. Where did you, where did you get the bug to sing? 

(09:28) Melissa Payton
Probably from my dad, uh, growing up. I grew up in church, and he sang in this wonderful gospel quartet. So my dad never learned to read music, which I find very interesting now as a musician, and sang everything by ear.

Uh, he was a low, low bass, so I remember going to his rehearsals and hearing him sing in church. And, uh, You know, he was the one at the end of the song that had the, Ooh.

(09:55) Ron Klemm
The slide. 

(09:55) Melissa Payton
Yeah. That like makes the whole church shake.

(09:57) Ron Klemm
Yeah. Your teeth rattle. 

(09:58) Melissa Payton
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I always thought that was pretty cool.

But growing up, we had, you know, music in the house. A lot of music in the house. Uh, my, my mother, God love her loves music, but cannot carry a tune in a bucket. Um, so a lot of that love for music came from my dad. My mom grew up in a musical family. Um, her mother and her brother are very great singers. Um, so a lot of that was instilled in me at a very young age.

We went to a very musical church. We had multiple choirs when we were kids, children's choir, a couple of different teen choirs and our music director there used to put on these huge productions. At Christmas time, we'd have like camels walking down the aisle and, uh, we'd perform these big spectaculars at the park nearby during the 4th of July.

So it was a lot of fun to be involved in all those different singing opportunities. Growing up, we did choir tours and most of my singing was done at church. Um, I had a music teacher, an elementary school music teacher who also went to our church, who told my mom when I was 13, this girl, you know, she has something special.

I think, I think you need to get her in voice lessons. So I started taking private voice lessons at that age. And then, uh, when I got into high school, I had a fantastic choral director, uh, who was a wonderful man who you knew, I think, Ike Eichenberger, choral director at McClure North High School. And his wife, Mary, was the orchestra director.

They had no children, but all of those kids at that school were their kids and their love. And they really invested so much time and passion into their students through many, many, many years of teaching and so many, music educators and choral directors and conductors and singers and musicians have come from that generation as a result of their teaching.

And, uh, you know, one day Mr. Ike, as we fondly called him, uh, looked at me and said, you know, you really have something special, Melissa. And I think this is something you should really pursue as a career, uh, I had no confidence to do that before he said that to me. And so I graduated and went on to get a degree in vocal performance. 

(12:13) Ron Klemm
At Missouri Baptist College.

(12:15) Melissa Payton
Yes. Missouri Baptist College. Yes. 

(12:17) Ron Klemm
Now University. 

(12:17) Melissa Payton
Yes. In my freshman year, they broke ground for that huge facility that they have, the huge arts center there. So it was really fun to be a part of that initial growth of that department and to see now how much it's flourished. Their music and arts program and theater program has really flourished since then

and I'm still very involved there and have a lot of colleagues that I met there that are also music teachers and educators, so. 

(12:42) Ron Klemm
And still great friends of The Bach Society. 

(12:44) Melissa Payton
Yes. 

(12:45) Ron Klemm
Over the years. We're very grateful for them. Was there ever a time, like in college or any other time really, where you felt, I want to use the word calling, where you said, this is what I want to do?

(12:58) Melissa Payton
That's a good question. 

(13:00) Ron Klemm
Well, thank you. That's why I'm here. 

(13:01) Melissa Payton
You know, you know, I always knew I wanted to, to sing because I just find so much joy and love in that. And even now as a mom, as an executive director, as wearing so many different hats. There are times when it's a Monday night and we have rehearsal because, you know, I still sing in The Bach Society Chorus now.

(13:20) Ron Klemm
I do see you over there goofing off in the soprano section. Yes. 

(13:24) Melissa Payton
And there are times when I'm tired and I think, goodness, do I need to still be doing this and coming every Monday night? You know, nine to 10 months out of the year, but it's during those times where I'm able to sit back and I'm not anybody's mom, I'm not anybody's executive director, I'm not anybody's wife, well I am, but in that moment, I'm a singer. And I know that that's, you know, what God created me to be. And that's a passion of mine, you know, that I just really find myself in. And if I left that I would be leaving a piece of myself. So yes, I always knew that I wanted that to be a part of my life. And as I I'm very type a, some people call me type a plus very organized. 

(14:08) Ron Klemm
That's a good grade. 

(14:09) Melissa Payton
Very organized, and, and so this, this job fits me really well because I. have the opportunity to organize things and be on the administrative side of a musical organization that I love and I really care about singing in and I really love our message and our mission and the music that we present. 

(14:29) Ron Klemm
That's Executive Director of The Bach Society of Saint Louis, Melissa Payton. I'm Ron Klemm and this is Bach Talk.

At some point there was a transition. And you went from being a singer only to assisting our then executive director, and then moved into the position. Tell me about that whole series of events. 

(15:10) Melissa Payton
At that time, as many singers and musicians do, I had many jobs. I was waiting tables. I was teaching private voice lessons at a local music store, which I loved. Oh, that was so much fun. I taught mostly high school girls and it was like part music teacher or part voice teacher, part therapist, you know, you'd hear all of the things going on in their lives. 

(15:36) Ron Klemm
Oh, sure, because that brings it out of people, doesn't it? 

(15:39) Melissa Payton
Yeah, it does. It was a lot of fun. And then I began working, uh, in a deeper role at that music store and I was managing all of the private lessons that came in. We had about 50 teachers and I think 500 lessons weekly. So I was managing that and I had done that for a while and, you know, it was looking for something else in that admin role that was still connected to music.

So Elaine Smith, our executive director of The Bach Society at that time, came to me and said, You know, we're starting this campaign. I'm going to need some extra help. Is that something you might be interested in? And I said, sure. I mean, you know, she had to get it approved by the board and all, all of that.

So it took a little while, but I came on and helped her with that campaign and took on some extra roles. And then, She had another motive, which I may not have known about at the time, but knew that she was approaching retirement and hopefully wanting to groom me a little bit for that position. So then, you know, I kind of worked under her for about a year and she retired and they interviewed me and thought I was good enough.

So, you know, here you are, you're stuck with me. And that was 10, I think I'm going into my 11th season. So that was 2013. 

(17:00) Ron Klemm
In one sentence, describe the job. 

(17:03) Melissa Payton
Many hats and many costume changes. 

(17:07) Ron Klemm
Very good! Not a complete sentence, but I'll take it. In other words, there's a tremendous amount of variety in the, in the task.

When it's time to put boots on the ground, there's a lot more to it, isn't there? 

(17:21) Melissa Payton
There is. And I learn more and more of that every year. I'm a lot better, I hope, and I think now than I was when I first started and the organization has really grown, you know, since I first started. We're doing so many different things and I'm so proud of the work that our team has done and I'm so proud of our board.

We had some great, strong leadership come in, uh, into the board right when I started as executive director and really made a huge difference in the organization and just really started thinking more strategically about the future and investing in the organization and really focusing on what the important things are for us to grow and truly make an impact now and into the future.

And so it's been really exciting to be a part of that growth, in, some ways scary to be a part of that growth and knowing that you need support around you. Uh, but it's, the board is fantastic and has, has just been so instrumental in our growth and at the financial stability that we currently have. And I will say, I think the unique thing too about the Bach Society is it's, it's a professional organization, but there's still so much family and respect within the organization.

I think that comes from the top and I have colleagues that work for other organizations and it is not. You know, things are not perfect, but we're not having a ton of drama and behind the scenes fights at board meetings in between staff. I feel like there's a level of respect that everyone really has for one another in the organization, and it really trickles down.

(19:06) Ron Klemm
Describe the structure a little bit. You have a staff, minimal staff. 

(19:10) Melissa Payton
Sure. Uh, I'm the executive director, so I'm basically the head of the administrative staff and I have an executive assistant as well. We have a marketing team, a small marketing team that I manage as well. And on the artistic side is our music director and conductor, Dennis Sparger.

His assistant conductor, Steven Eros. And then everything artistic falls underneath him, our music director, accompanist, all of the members of the chorus. And then we have a board of directors that manages all of us. We have about 20 directors right now, I think, that manage the organization.

(19:44) Ron Klemm
And where does that board come from? How do you get on the board? 

(19:48) Melissa Payton
You buy your way in.

(19:50) Ron Klemm
Well, no wonder. I got rotated off. 

(19:56) Melissa Payton
So many different ways. A lot of times it's connections with other board members. Many folks have a, at least a love or a background in some sort of music and believe in what we're doing. Some are educators, some are physicians, you know, some, we have quite a number of lawyers right now, believe it or not.

(20:16) Ron Klemm
A room full of lawyers and they get along, this can't be true. 

(20:20) Melissa Payton
But we're always looking for folks with different talents and different things to bring to the table. And, you know, that this person can offer and, and help us with and get on board and be passionate about, you know. 

(20:32) Ron Klemm
There was a time when fundraising was primarily, well, we try to get, uh, you know, as many grants as we can from here and there and then we go to the big corporations and we get big corporate dollars. Life as we know it has changed. And now there's a lot of, uh, Uh, individual attention that's required to, to fund an organization like ours. Tell us about that, that shift. 

(20:59) Melissa Payton
It has changed quite a bit in the 10 plus years that I've been here. Our primary way of getting funding and income was through corporate donations. Our major grantors in the area. And there has been a major shift, not just in the St. Louis area, but nationally that we've been hearing from other similar sized arts organizations. Corporations are just not necessarily, especially in St. Louis, interested in funding the arts. It's just not a priority at this point in time. So that funding has been really dwindling, especially in the past two or three years post COVID and we've been finding more success in our individual donors, as you say, through concert sponsorships. And I've found more than anything in this job, learning about building relationships and keeping those connections with your funders, with leaders in the community.

That is the most important thing that I do to keep that success of the organization, engaging our funders, reminding them of why their support is so important, because it really is. It's changed to be close to 50 percent of our income that we rely on. There are some private foundations where you can receive some income from, but it's really our individual donors that, are sustaining us and investing in our future by maybe giving through a legacy gift that keeps giving after their departure from this earth or by supporting a concert series or by making a one time wonderful gift that they may want to invest in presenting a major work every three years as we've seen done before. So it's wonderful to see people step up in that way. And I think the fact that we are over 80 years old, we have built relationships with so many people over the years and that's been to our benefit because we have such a long history with so many musicians, singers, audience members that continue to come and believe and invest in our future. 

(23:13) Ron Klemm
I want to talk more about that right after the break. That's Executive Director Melissa Payton of The Bach Society of Saint Louis and I'm Ron Klemm. This is Bach Talk.

What makes The Bach Society unique? What makes it different from other organizations that otherwise might seem on the surface to be similar? 

(24:15) Melissa Payton
Well, I definitely think we're unique in St. Louis. There are probably other organizations nationally that do similar things to what we do. But in St. Louis, there is, there's no other organization that is doing what we do.

No other choral organization that is investing in young students and investing in music educators and music education. There's no other organization that's really dedicated to preserving these oratorial works by J. S. Bach and those inspired by him. And by the way, we don't just sing Bach. I'm sure you've mentioned that once or twice or twenty times. Because that would just be hard. 

(24:59) Ron Klemm
Well, it would, it would be impossible, impossible, it would be unsustainable over time. 

(25:05) Melissa Payton
But I love that about us. 

(25:05) Ron Klemm
But the great works of Bach provide the foundation for what The Bach Society does, and it provides the impetus for fundraising and so on and this is what you were talking about earlier about having, you know, every few years certain works are absolutely written in stone. 

(25:23) Melissa Payton
Well, and the symphony is not able to perform some of these smaller works that you have with the chamber orchestra It's just not something that they do or that they feel will make money and so we have this unique opportunity to move this type of music forward and forward Into our schools and remind students and our audience why it's so valuable and so important and specifically sacred music how important that is and how moving it can be as an audience member and as a, as a singer, you know, there have been so many times where we've been performing and we're moved to the point a couple of times where I've moved to the, been moved to the point where I can't sing because it's just that emotional.

And if it's that way for us, how is it for the people in the audience that are connecting with that music in the same way? So I think what we have is special. You know, it's, it's very special in St. Louis, but also nationally just to really understand how dedicated the organization is to longevity and making a mark and making sure that this music is heard and continues to flourish and people continue to know about it and it's continued to be performed because if not us, who?

(26:45) Ron Klemm
If not us, who? I mean, I think that's what our founder, Dr. William Heine, said at the very, very beginning. Let's, I mean, let's put an organization together that specializes in this kind of music. And lo and behold, here we are. What provides the stability? Is it the repertoire? Is it the people? What provides, uh, you know, pushing a century's worth of stability in an organization? Not a lot of turnover. Uh, in, in staff or, or, uh, other aspects of the organization. What is it? 

(27:20) Melissa Payton
That's also a good question. I think it has to be all of the above, right? It has to start with passion and people that believe and take the time to invest their money and their energy into what you're doing. It takes, as I said, positivity and respect from the top, commitment, discipline, but I think it all starts with a love and passion and a willingness to invest in that. And, you know, it really is talented, young singers that come and want to work with us and a leader that's willing to take some risks sometimes that he may or may not. Want to take no, he's not forced into anything. Let's be, let's rest assured for that. 

(28:08) Ron Klemm
Well, let's let's examine that for just a moment because what you basically said was if you want to exist for 80 plus years you have to sometimes Get out of your own comfort zone. Am I right? 

(28:22) Melissa Payton
Yes.

(28:23) Ron Klemm
And, and have you felt that too for you? 

(28:26) Melissa Payton
Definitely. 

(28:26) Ron Klemm
Okay. You don't want to cite any examples, probably.

(28:31) Melissa Payton
Well, you have to take a look around and say, you know, are we still, is, is what we're still doing relevant? And if it's not, then how are we going to continue to remain relevant in 2024. And how are we going to continue to connect with young people and with our audience, if we're not presenting things in a way that they will hear and accept and love.

So I think you always have to be thinking about changing things up. And sometimes. We'll hear, you know, we'll be in a meeting with this committee or that committee, well, we tried that one time. Well, but we tried that 20 years ago. So let's try it in a different way now. It could be different. So I think, I think if anything, honestly, COVID has taught me to be more flexible, to take more risks and say, well, we've never tried that before, but why not? You know, what's the worst that could happen? I mean, we're thankfully in a good situation. We're not going to lose a ton of money and be millions of dollars in debt by making a, you know, taking a risk. But I think it's important to have leadership and a board that's willing to do some of that to test the waters.

(29:39) Ron Klemm
You've had so many great experiences, uh, with The Bach Society over the years. Name one. What's the one thing that all of a sudden sticks out that gives you joy? 

(29:51) Melissa Payton
Something that came to mind first is kind of a memory. I guess, now Ron is like getting me emotional. You were waiting for it. Um, I remember, I talked previously a little bit earlier about my high school choral director and how instrumental he was.

It was in my, probably my first four, four or five years as executive director. And we were at Powell hall for our Christmas Candlelight Concert, and it was a very successful year and I was walking through the halls, I was rushing from a donor reception to go backstage and I saw him in the lobby and I didn't know he was coming and I hadn't seen him for years.

And I was so excited to go up to him and say, Mr. Ike, oh my goodness, it's so good to see you. And, and he said, oh, I hear you're executive director of The Bach Society. How exciting. And just, I was like, seeing in that moment all of those people that were there that we worked so hard to market that concert and knowing You know, none none of that would have been really possible without him and his time that he invested in me and wanting, wanting him to be proud of me in that moment, you know And also being very proud myself in that moment of how much that I had done and how excited I was that he was there to see it and witness it.

And, um, I think I'm crying because, you know, we lost him in December of 2020 to COVID. And we have since been really, um, trying to plan fundraising events to raise money for a foundation that he put together, he and his wife to benefit students in the district where we grew up that are pursuing a career in music.

So I've been very involved in that. Um, and he continues to make a difference even now after he's gone. And I just think that was one very special, unexpected moment that year at Christmas and the lobby of Powell hall. And he probably, I almost started crying when I saw him and he probably thought I was just crazy, but it was a, it was a very special moment. Full circle moment. 

(32:01) Ron Klemm
We are all products of the people who have influenced our lives and, uh, his influences live on in you and, uh, we're very grateful for all that you've done for The Bach Society and I can say that because I've been around a long time. 

(32:19) Melissa Payton
Thank you. 

(32:19) Ron Klemm
Thank you for all you do and for spending a little time with us.

(32:23) Melissa Payton
Thanks, Ron. 

(32:24) Ron Klemm
Executive Director, Melissa Payton. I'm Ron Klemm. This is Bach Talks.

Musical portions today featured selections from concert performances by The Bach Society of Saint Louis, Dennis Sparger, music director and conductor.

Bach Talk would like to hear from you. Will you do us a quick favor? If you enjoy what you're hearing on this episode, or any of our previous episodes, We'd really appreciate it if you'd take a moment to rate and review our podcast on your favorite platform. Wherever you listen, your feedback helps us reach more listeners, tell our story, and keep the conversation going.

If you have comments, questions, or suggestions about Bach Talk for our team or any of our guests, we'd love to hear them. You can fill out the quick and easy comment form on our website. at BachSociety. org slash BachTalk. Or, send us an email directly. BachTalk at BachSociety. org. That's BachTalk, B A C H T A L K, BachTalk at BachSociety.org.

The associate producer of BachTalk is Scott MacDonald. Marketing and technical assistance provided by Andie Murphy and Charissa Marciniak of The Right Relations. And of course, special thanks to Bach Society Executive Director, Melissa Payton.

Bach Talk is a registered trademark of The Bach Society of Saint Louis. I'm Ron Klemm.

About Episode 12

What exactly is a countertenor? Join host Ron Klemm as he explores this unique voice type with one of the finest in the field, Kansas City-based Jay Carter. In this episode, Jay shares his experiences and the challenges of navigating the rarified air of countertenor singing, all while making it sound effortless. With co-host Scott MacDonald, they delve into the nuances of performing at such dizzying vocal heights, offering insights into the artistry and technical skill required.

Transcription

(00:00) Scott MacDonald
This is Bach Talk. The human voice is a remarkable instrument. It can span vast octaves, and evoke the full spectrum of colors. The highest soprano can give you goosebumps. The lowest bass can rattle your teeth.

But what about the middle? Where do those typically male and female roles meet? And where do they overlap?

That's countertenor Jay Carter, singing an alto aria from Bach's St. Matthew Passion. The countertenor voice is rarely encountered, and it can be a shock the first time one hears it even for Jay himself. 

(01:32) Jay Carter
I did not expect to be singing as a countertenor. And in fact, the first time I heard a countertenor, I hated it. And never say never, because sometimes you find yourself doing things you don't expect.

(01:44) Scott MacDonald
Hello, I'm associate producer Scott MacDonald. Welcome to Bach Talk. Jay Carter has earned a reputation as one of America's leading countertenors. He first appeared with The Bach Society of Saint louis in 2012. That's the performance we just heard. Since then, he's returned to St. Louis often, joining music director Dennis Sparger and The Bach Society Chorus and Orchestra in Bach's B Minor Mass, both the St. John and St. Matthew Passions, plus Bach Cantatas. As a leading interpreter of Baroque repertoire, Jay has appeared with acclaimed conductors and performance groups around the globe. His love for collaboration makes him a sought after soloist. But what about that incredible voice? Ron Klemm spoke with Jay when he was in St. Louis this past spring. Today, we'll dive into their conversation. They begin by laying out exactly what a countertenor is and how this unique role evolved, starting with the name. 

(02:44) Jay Carter
It's kind of a confusing label, uh, and the, the origin of the label is messy and, and hard to define, but essentially it means the uppermost of the male voices.

And by, by default, it's a part that's above the tenor part. In the old days, you had chanted music and when music began to get more complex, they called the main part, the tenor part where the tune was. And then there were composed parts on either side of the tenor part. There was the countertenor bassus and the countertenor altus.

And at some point the label altus became used in some places more than it was countertenor, but it basically means a high male voice that sings above the tenor range. And usually it occupies the same range as a contralto, which is a female voice, or a mezzo soprano, which is, you know, again, generally a female voice.

(03:36) Ron Klemm
But not always. 

(03:36) Jay Carter
But not always. Part of the absence of, of females singing music in certain periods was a degree of misogyny. And a lot of it stems from a forbidding of women singing within the church that comes from the New Testament. That's been implemented and thought about in different ways at different times.

And I'm very happy to report that from about 1700 onward, uh, there's, there's less of a prescription against women singing in public at least. And over time that becomes extended to sacred music within the church. The solution to that problem was to have boy trebles singing some of those soprano lines.

And in the German tradition, When the boys voices were changing, they often sang those alto lines as well. There were also grown men who had high voices, uh, or used a mixture of falsetto and chest voice and would occupy those same parts, solo lines and choral lines. There's also a counterpart to this that's kind of a sticky subject, and that's the notion of the castrati, which are primarily an Italian by-product of the forbidding of music within the church being sung by women and on the stage. And that's a radical solution to a problem that, you know, fortunately, I think the last castrato died around 1910 or so, Alessandro Moreschi. And we have some recordings of that, but there was a large industry of, of producing singers who might potentially have a stage career and most of them washed out and a lot of them became the soprano voices in the papal chapel. Uh, they did a lot of work with an opera. Handel worked with Castrati extensively. But Bach, on the other hand, was in very different places and that infrastructure wasn't a part of Bach's, uh, Bach's work at St. Thomas or at his other postings. So, Those were generally boy sopranos and falsettists or high-voiced males singing those parts. I fit an odd niche then with what I do that straddles about five different voice types. And a lot of it is essentially that trash can lump diagnosis of contralto mezzo-soprano and the rep that goes in that mix.

It's not what I started out doing. I did not expect to be singing as a countertenor when I was a kid in high school, getting ready to start studying music. Yeah. And in fact, the first time I heard a countertenor, I hated it and never say never because sometimes you find yourself doing things you don't expect.

And, uh, as an undergraduate, I worked primarily as a tenor and I had a very patient teacher, but we discovered there was something there. And. I was so attracted to the repertoire and he encouraged me not to make an immediate choice about voice type and to just sing a healthy tone wherever I was singing.

And I'm really grateful to him for that because it left those doors open for a long time. And I think it means that the countertenor singing that I do is different than what other folks do. 

(06:33) Ron Klemm
How? 

(06:34) Jay Carter
There's more of a mix of chest voice in what I do. And if you were, you know, for your armchair enthusiasts that are out there wanting to go on YouTube and listen to different singers, all you have to do is go listen to two different countertenors.One is Alfred Deller, who was kind of at the beginning of that in the 30s. 

(06:50) Ron Klemm
A Deller concert was very popular.

(06:51) Jay Carter
Was huge. Yeah. Deller uses primarily a falsetto-based technique for, to make that sound. And he was singing that.

(07:05) Ron Klemm
Now describe that, for our listeners who don't understand.

(07:07) Jay Carter
Changed voices, male voices, uh, are able to kind of flip into this alternate register where just the edges of the vocal cord are vibrating.

It's, it's not the whole thing vibrating. And it means that the pitches are high and they're produced much more easily than a full-throated chest voice. You could say I occupy some of the same range as high tenors singing Italian opera or French opera from the late 19th century. But the production system is different.

And so the sound is, um, it doesn't sound as physically rooted and, and efforted. Uh, it's, it's more effortless and flowy. And then the American Russell Oberlin, who just passed away here a few years ago. 

They sang the exact same repertoire, but if you listen to those voices, you hear that Professor Oberlin was a high-voiced male voice that was using his chest voice.

And my work really kind of blends both but leans heavily toward the Russell Oberlin school of a little bit more bodily tone in the sound

(08:54) Scott MacDonald
That's countertenor Jay Carter along with The Bach Society Orchestra conducted by Dennis Sparger He's singing a portion of the alto aria Qui sedes from Bach's Mass in B Minor with Ron Klemm. I'm Scott McDonald and this is Bach Talk. We'll be right back.

(09:16) Ron Klemm
I have a friend who says that he, he didn't find Bach. Bach found him. What is your experience with finding Bach and Handel and all these great Baroque composers? Did they tap you on the shoulder? 

(09:34) Jay Carter
You know, I think the first time I really began to dig into that material when I was in, when I was an undergraduate, at least with respect to Handel, uh, I found something attractive about it, but I just, I felt like it was a little bit stodgy.

It wasn't immediately approachable to me. And it wasn't until I started working with people who were trying to enliven the material, and in many cases, it was to try to keep us undergrads awake and invested in what we were doing, uh, that I began to really pay attention to the interlocking nature of that as a, not as a listener, but as an active participant in making the music.

Uh, Bach was the same way, but as undergraduates. There's a, there's a tendency to kind of leave Bach's music to the side because it's so darned tricky and it doesn't give you any help at all in terms of technique. In fact, it pulls everything that you know out of you and then demands more and then kicks you up and down and leaves you beside the road.

(10:32) Ron Klemm
And the slightest, uh, deviation from that. And you're. 

(10:35) Jay Carter
And that's the thing, you know, Handel, I don't get nervous about doing a new piece by Handel with, with people I don't know. Uh, I get nervous doing pieces of Bach. I know very well with people I know very well because it's just so tightly constructed. So Bach was always something that I was looking at even early on and kind of holding in high regard but saying, my God, that's hard, and I don't know that I can do that. And slowly but surely, like any artisanal trade, you learn enough basic technique that you can at least approach the problems that are there and begin to kind of break them down one by one. Bach was already in the room waiting for me and, you know, was ready to tear me to shreds right at the beginning.

(11:18) And, uh, I'm, I'm glad we've come to a, at least detente with one another. It's, it's music I love singing and that I respect greatly, but I also know that it's, it's kind of like stunt work. The potential for failure is, is loss of life and limb. 

(11:34) Ron Klemm
What, what, what creates the greatest struggle for you?

(11:39) Jay Carter
For me, it's every single layer that you choose to, or lens that you choose to view box work through, uh, is perfectly constructed and tough as nails on its own. So even if you're just looking at the musical aspect of things, there is this basic musical line that's kind of under the structure that he has ornamented within an inch of its life.

And your job as a performer is to not only convey the clarity of the line that's under the surface but to also deliver all the ornamental material in such a way that it doesn't detract from the whole. The lines are also extremely lines, long. Sometimes the phrases are so tightly constructed that there's no room to breathe in it.

And that's just some of the musical problems that you have to solve when you're working with Bach's music. Then there's the issue of text for a singer. We don't always remember this, but one of Bach's teaching duties in his work at the Thomas Kirche was to at least oversee the instruction of the boys in rhetoric.

I don't know about you, but rhetoric was outside of the curriculum when I came through the school system. And it's not coming back in the form that it was anytime soon. So it, it means that singers, especially if we haven't been autodidact about that, or just exceptionally clever, we're going to have to do that work on our own and the rhetorical layer in Bach's music is an equal part of the construction as everything else. And then there's the technique, which is almost instrumental in nature. It's like the Arbenz book for brass, where you just go to the back and there are theme and variations on Carnival of Venice that do everything, and Bach expects you to do all of those with no break.

It's amazing material. It's also intensely difficult material to say nothing of the poor listeners. If it's not done by people who are, who are really thoughtful about the work they do. 

(13:29) Ron Klemm
I'll tell you what amazes me. Everything that you're talking about right now and all these incredible, difficult and high hurdles that you have to navigate. Bach had to do this every week. What? Are you kidding me?

(13:44) Jay Carter
I know. And one really wonders whether or not. What was coming out from the choir stalls in the Tomas Kirche was, was really representative of what was on the page or if it was, you know, it was him, him writing as an idealist and being happy for what humans were able to do that in many ways pushes them past the edges of the extremes. I, I, if I had a time machine and I had a chance to go back, I think one of my first stops would probably be Sunday morning and about 1726 or so after Bach had been in Leipzig for a few years, just to see what the lay of the land wasn't here, what I was hearing.

But then I think, and I realized he was also inherently responsible for the musical instruction of these. of the boy singers in the, in the system and also of the men after a period of time as well, they had kind of come up through the system. They didn't have anything else to do. They didn't have television to watch at night so they could practice their scales.

So, you know, I weigh both sides of it and I, I strongly suspect that what was being done there, there were enough invested in that system that what came out was, was probably pretty darn glorious, um, although I'm sure there were a few goose eggs every now and then, cause the music is just to premiere that material and not have any performance tradition for it going back that, that to me sounds terrifying.

Um, but yeah, time machine, I'm going to Leipzig for at least a few days to look around and to try to, try to get that. And if I met Bach on the street, I don't know that, you know, I don't know whether I would give him a hug or, or trip him because it's a little bit of both. It's, you know. 

(15:21) Ron Klemm
Yeah. Well, I can tell you what else it is, uh, because my wife and I had the chance to go and worship on a Sunday morning in the Thomas Kircher and I, I could understand about 5 percent of it.

But, when those chorales and those, those, uh, hymns come along and you sing them, I mean, the, the tears just, they're, they're unstoppable because now suddenly, language notwithstanding, we are connected and that's what Bach did, didn't he? 

(15:51) Jay Carter
And I think that's what all good art does is it provides a sense of, uh, transport to other places, other times, other philosophies and ways of thinking.

And for me, when I'm, In my evaluatory role about whether or not something's good art or not, that's one of the things that I look at. Does it, does it provide me with a sense of. belonging to something that's outside of my realm of experience and bring me in. I'm headed to Leipzig actually this, this spring for Bachfest. It'll be my first time there and I am equal parts 

(16:22) Ron Klemm
Terrified 

(16:23) Jay Carter
And terrified. Yeah, it's, it's the nausea that goes with a roller coaster ride, which I don't do roller coasters, so Leipzig is, is it for me.

(17:22) Scott MacDonald
This is a brief portion of Von Den Stricken from Bach's St. John Passion, countertenor Jake Carter, along with The Bach Society Orchestra conducted by Dennis Sparger. With Ron Klemm, I'm Scott McDonald and this is Bach Talk.

(17:45) Ron Klemm
So much goes into a particular performance of Bach's work. You are in town to perform with The Bach Society and you come with a certain, what's the word, a certain idea, a certain approach. And then you come to the first rehearsal and the maestro is there. He asked me to ask you this question, by the way. And he or she, whoever it is, has a slightly different approach. And now you have to decide, okay, how are we going to collaborate? I mean, the maestro is always right, but how do you, how do you come to that point of collaboration? 

(18:27) Jay Carter
I know from my vantage as a, as a singer, as a guest, Uh, when I'm, when I'm coming to the table, um, I have to trust that the person that I'm working with and that's leading the ensemble, uh, not only knows the space in which we're going but also knows the musicians with, with whom they're working.

You can, you can get away with some haphazardness and, and some other pieces, but, but in, in Bach, those, those individual ideas have a really profound impact on how the thing goes. Knowing that they know their orchestra, they know the space that we're in, and they also know their overall larger scale idea that they're hoping for in that particular presentation of the piece.

I have a lot of trust in saying, I'm, I'm going to take a page from their book and I try to make sure that in my preparatory work that I'm always working at a variety of tempi and dealing with a variety of ideas so that when we're in the room, kind of feeling each other out like jazz musicians, finding out what works in the room more often than not,

I find that the conductor if they have a differing viewpoint from mine, has arrived at that from the vantage of being a perfectly sane, rational human being who knows what they're talking about. And rather than combating against that, uh, I, I try to participate in that as much as possible. The good news is, is most conductors that I'm fortunate enough to work with at this stage in my career are people who feel that way from their side of the podium as well.

And it really does become a collaboration of ideas. One of the hard things about the John Passion, and in one of the arias that I'm doing, Es ist vollbracht, that's in part two, uh, is that there is an incredibly important obbligato partner for me. It's, it's like a little sonata for a couple of different soloists.

(20:18) Ron Klemm
Instrumental soloists. 

(20:20) Jay Carter
Instrumentalists. I'm fortunate to know the gamba player that's playing for this. It's Ken Kulosa, whom I've, I've known Ken now probably for 20 years in a lot of different capacities, uh, and with different ensembles in town. And I know coming in a little bit about what Ken's probably going to want tempo-wise, but also having a lot of trust for his playing and the way that he does things and that sense of familiarity, it really helps. But what I have found is when you don't know who the obbligato player is, I feel like it's part of my job as the singer to. to try to find out what their thoughts are. But I, I tried to just be really thoughtful about it. I, I trust my fellow colleagues on stage to understand their instrument and their task and to find a way for us to move in tandem.

What I'm finding increasingly in this field and the way I have found the field primarily in my work over the last 20 or so years, is that most people in this business have a heart for collaboration to begin with, even if the collaboration involves a complete dog and pony show of 15 million different constituent parts.

There's a, there's a real sense of that. And, and I think it's that way within the musicians as well. And thank God for that, because otherwise the work would be intolerable. 

(21:34) Ron Klemm
By definition, it is an ensemble. You have to come together at some point. Otherwise, you know, a bunch of individuals, it's just not going to work.

(21:44) Jay Carter
It just doesn't work. And my work as an academic, I'm coming off of a period right now where the, the students that I am working with. at the conservatory at UMKC are really operatically focused in their work. Although I've dabbled in operatic work, that's not really been the crux of my, of my work as a performer or as a teacher, except for the last couple of years.

And one of the things I am consistently trying to impress on them, whether or not they're doing a role on stage with orchestra or whether they're doing an art song and one of their degree recitals, that their work is always collaborative. It's almost never exclusively about them. There are always other considerations and what I'm finding increasingly is, is that the students who are aware of that, or who are becoming aware of that, there's a layer to their work that feels live rather than synthetic. 

(22:38) Ron Klemm
What does Jay Carter do for fun? 

(22:40) Jay Carter
My wife and I are both gourmands, as it, as it were. We're so interested in cuisine from across the world. So travel and food are, are really strong motivators. Um, but for me, My brain doesn't stop very often. And one of the things that relaxes me is, is thinking about music and art and culture and how those things really relate to each other. That being said, I certainly have my favorite trashy TV shows that I watch on television.

(23:12) Ron Klemm
Give me one! 

(23:13) Jay Carter
90 Day Fiancé and the whole franchise. It's just, you know, it's just, it's just what I, I, I almost, I'm, I'm flushing here on this side of the microphone to even have admitted it out loud, but it's, it's just one of the.

(23:25) Ron Klemm
Well, I could edit it out if I wanted to. 

(23:27) Jay Carter
Well, no, I think you should leave it in because I, I feel like the bandage is off now. Yeah. 

(23:32) Ron Klemm
Did you watch a Super Bowl? 

(23:34) Jay Carter
I did. Oh, of course. 

(23:35) Ron Klemm
How about those Chiefs?

(23:38) Jay Carter I, well, here's the thing is, you know, I didn't really give two figs about sports when I was in high school or even college. And I think it wasn't until. my family moved away from Kansas City for the first time for me to do graduate work, that I began to pay any attention to the Kansas City Royals.

I began to really care a little bit about the ball team. And then a few years ago, my family, we moved to the East coast for a while. And, uh, that was the year that the Chiefs won the Super Bowl. And we were so, yeah, the first one. And we were just so excited. And, you know, I've, I've finally come to, to realize that I, I really do enjoy the sense of civic pride that comes from living in a place like Kansas City, where there's a fabulous arts community. We, but we also have a sports community and we also have other things that we're, that we're doing and that we're growing. It's a, it's a vibrant place to live. And that sense of pride I've, I've learned it's okay to feel that for, for sports and for music that isn't my own and for culture that isn't my own.

(24:43) Ron Klemm
That's countertenor and Chiefs fan and TV critic, Jay Carter. I'm Ron Klemm and this is Bach Talk. 

(24:51) Scott MacDonald
And from football back to Bach. Here's part of the poignant aria from the St. John Passion. Es ist vollbracht, or it is finished. Countertenor Jay Carter, accompanied by The Bach Society Orchestra and conducted by music director Dennis Sparger.Jay Carter singing Es ist wohlbracht from the St. John Passion. This performance took place in spring 2023, and like all of our concert excerpts today, it was captured by the Bach Society's Grammy Award-winning recording engineer, Paul Henrich.

Guests of the Bach Society stay at the Hilton St. Louis Frontenac Hotel, featuring Old World charm at the intersection of comfort and convenience.

Subscribe to Bach Talk wherever you get your podcasts. You can learn more about the podcast or about the Bach Society at www.bachsociety.org Bach Talk is produced by Ron Klemm. Marketing and technical assistance are provided by Andie Murphy and Charissa Marciniak of The Right Relations. Until next time, I'm Scott MacDonald.

Bach Talk is a registered trademark of The Bach Society of Saint Louis.

About Episode 11

Sandra Geary might not crave the limelight, but her role as accompanist is critical to The Bach Society of Saint Louis. Originally from Cork, Ireland, she came to St. Louis to study at the Saint Louis Conservatory of Music and has been here ever since. Host Ron Klemm and Music Director and Conductor A. Dennis Sparger sat down with Sandra to hear all about her passion for music, her role as an educator and how she started playing piano. Plus, she shares some of her favorite memories from the last 30 years performing with The Bach Society of Saint Louis.

Transcription

(00:00) Ron Klemm
This is Bach Talk.

A celebrated music educator once wrote, "True musicianship is found not only in the mastery of one's instrument, but in the ability to collaborate, to inspire, and to elevate the artistry of those around you."Nowhere is that mastery and collaborative spirit more evident than in the one who takes on the role of choral accompanist.

(00:47) Sandra Geary
I feel like I'm a helper. I don't need to have the limelight. I need to support whoever I'm playing for, whether it be a singer or, um, an instrumentalist, or even a chorus.

(01:08) Ron Klemm
Such a person is rare indeed. There are many great pianists after all, but there are far fewer great accompanists. The Bach Society of Saint Louis enjoys one of the finest and has for a long time. Her name is Sandra Geary. She has been the accompanist for The Bach Society for more than 30 years. In addition, she's a member of the piano faculty at Washington University, accompanies their vocal ensembles, as well as Webster University's Opera Studio.

She's a much sought after vocal coach and regularly accompanies recitals, auditions, and competitions in the St. Louis area. You are about to meet Sandra. And since she, like so many of the best accompanists, is not always comfortable in the spotlights, we've dimmed them down just a little.

(02:05) Sandra Geary
I don't need the glory. I'm there to support as much as I can and be musical and inspire them to be more musical by how I play. 

(02:13) Ron Klemm
Hello, I'm Ron Klemm. Welcome to Bach Talk. Music director and conductor A. Dennis Sparger joined our conversation prior to a rehearsal not too long ago. And now, with the help of editor Scott MacDonald, settle back and get ready to be charmed and delighted with Bach Society accompanist, Sandra Geary. You've been the accompanist for The Bach Society of Saint Louis since?

(02:48) Sandra Geary
1993, January. 

(02:51) Ron Klemm
And counting. 

(02:52) Sandra Geary
And counting. 

(02:53) Ron Klemm
Tell us about the circumstances surrounding your coming to The Bach Society. 

(02:58) Sandra Geary
I played for an audition, and Dennis was looking for an accompanist at the time, and I had already said that I would play for ten weeks for another group in town. And then he contacted me and said the job is yours if you'd like it.

So of course I jumped at the chance and I've been happy ever since. I've learned so much by just watching. It has helped my own teaching a lot, I find, just playing Bach. And learning about how to breathe as singers. I work a lot with singers anyway. So that's really inspired my teaching. 

(03:32) Ron Klemm
Well, that's about four podcast episodes that you've already brought up.

So you're coming back, no questions asked. 

(03:38) A. Dennis Sparger
And you've certainly made us more than happy

(03:40) Sandra Geary
Oh, thank you. 

(03:41) Ron Klemm
Is that how you remember it? 

(03:42) A. Dennis Sparger
Oh, yes. 

(03:43) Ron Klemm
Or is she fudging it? 

(03:44) A. Dennis Sparger
No, she just played an audition and just did a tremendous job.

(03:49) Ron Klemm
By this point, people have already noticed and said, Wait a minute, she's not from Missouri.

(03:57) Sandra Geary
I've lived here since 1985, believe it or not. 

(04:00) Ron Klemm
And you came from? 

(04:01) Sandra Geary
Uh, Cork, Ireland. Yeah, on a scholarship to the Saint Louis Conservatory of Music. Uh, to a wonderful teacher that I met in Dublin. a year before, uh, Joseph Kalkstein, who's since passed away, unfortunately. Um, and so I came over and followed him and did my degree at the Saint Louis conservatory. 

(04:21) A. Dennis Sparger
Could you say a few words about what really caught you as a child to get involved with music, with, with piano? Were you told that you're going to do this or did you just go, go to it yourself? 

(04:36) Sandra Geary
We had an old piano in our home. Um, my grandfather lived with us. Um, my grandad played a little bit.

And so from the age of three, she would take my fingers and run them over the piano. And pick out some Irish tunes mostly. The Rakes of Mallow is one of them. Um, my grandfather used to sing a little bit. So I had a good ear. And so I went to school, uh, I was five and a half, and when I was almost six, um, they had a piano in our classroom, and when the nun left one day, I started playing.

And one of the students told on me, Sister, Sandra Geary was playing the piano.

(05:16) Ron Klemm
Which was a no no. 

(05:17) Sandra Geary
Well, she thought so, the girl who told on me. But when the nun left the next time, she said, Sandra, can you just keep them quiet and just play something? So, then she recognized there was a talent there, and talked to Mum.

And, uh, Mum said, okay, let's give her lessons. So I started working with an older lady in town. 

(05:38) Ron Klemm
At what age?

(05:38) Sandra Geary
Uh, I was six. Then when I was eight, she, this wonderful teacher that I probably owe a lot to, told mom, I can't keep up with her. She's reading ahead. I just, she needs to go to another teacher, which I really owe a lot to.

So I was lucky that a lady came to town because of her husband's job, and she was a concert pianist she came from Dublin, and I did an audition for her, and she took me on, and then I was with her for about three years. And then her husband was moved back to Dublin, and then she got me in with the Cork School of Music, where I had a wonderful teacher for many years, and then I had two teachers prior to coming here.

(06:23) Ron Klemm
I'm curious about life in Cork. 

(06:26) Sandra Geary
Cork, hmm. I had a wonderful childhood. Parents bought me a piano when I was eight. Uh, because the old piano was just not working. Uh, they encouraged me. They were not musically inclined at all. But always supported what I wanted to do. Basically, I always knew I wanted to do music.

And they supported that. 

(06:50) A. Dennis Sparger
So from the time almost that you were eight or nine?

(06:53) Sandra Geary
I think I knew I always wanted to do this. 

(06:54) A. Dennis Sparger
You knew this was going to be it. 

(06:55) Sandra Geary
I mean, I had no problem. I was always practicing. And when other kids were out playing, I was like, I gotta do my practice first. So it was just, I think, just a gift.

(07:04) Ron Klemm
Well, it is a gift because, uh, 

(07:05) Sandra Geary
It is a gift. 

(07:06) Ron Klemm
Some of us would rather play ball first.

(07:07) Sandra Geary
Ha, ha, ha, ha. 

(07:10) Ron Klemm
Um, but I'm curious about your teachers and how they, uh, How they influenced you, beyond music, what gifts did they give to you? 

(07:21) Sandra Geary
Um, I would say my second teacher, uh, which was the lady from Dublin, um, taught me how to sing at the piano.

(07:30) Sandra Geary
Um, when I did go to her first day, um, my fingers were not curving. And so that was one of the hardest things I had to do. But I always remember sing on top of my music, sing. And I really didn't get it at first, but I think after a while listening to her, And that really inspired me. 

(07:48) Ron Klemm
Literally singing or figuratively singing as you're playing?

(07:54) Sandra Geary
Figuratively singing as I was playing. 

(07:55) A. Dennis Sparger
Yes. 

(07:56) Sandra Geary
Yeah. And then my next teacher told me in order to play Mozart well, you have to go to the operas. And I thought, okay, a 13, a three hour opera, all right. But now I get it. Yeah. Not at the time, but now it does.

(09:15) Ron Klemm
Tell me about your role. I know you have a job description, but I'll bet mind reader is not in there. 

(09:22) Sandra Geary
I try my best I think I've worked with Dennis long enough, but I, I guess I need to go back a little bit. Um, when I was a student here at the Conservatory of Music in Saint Louis, um, in the 80s, I started working with a conductor, uh, Leona Greenlaw, actually, with the Young Singers Missouri.

And so that's where I got to, uh, to work with a conductor on a more regular basis. So I feel like when I did join The Bach Society that I had that. Yeah, my role as rehearsal pianist, I guess. It's, it's really fun for me. Um, I sight read really well, so sometimes I come into the rehearsal process and I get the music right there and then, and I do my best on the first rehearsal, and then I go home and practice for the next one.

But I feel like, yes, I do read Dennis's mind on occasion. Yeah, and where he wants to go back to, um, and that saves a lot of time, because Dennis is very time oriented, which is fabulous, we always get out on time, everything is to the minute, for the most part, um, and so I feel like I need to really concentrate for that two and a half hour rehearsal, or however long it is, um, To be right there when he needs me and to hear what needs to be helped at a particular time.

If the tenors are missing a note here or there, I'll bring that out a little bit more subtly without them even knowing maybe at times. Yeah, it's a really enjoyable thing. 

(10:53) A. Dennis Sparger
It's really quite a different job from being a concert pianist.

(10:57) Sandra Geary
Absolutely. And when I first came over here, I thought I wanted to do that.

But then during the process of my degree at the Conservatory, I got, as I call it, the accompanying bug. And I accompanied for probably most of the concert. instrumentalists. Uh, they already had a violin and string, um, rehearsal pianist and a voice rehearsal pianist so I basically played for everybody else.

(11:23) Ron Klemm
Obviously it requires a special skill or set of skills. 

(11:26) Sandra Geary
Yes. 

(11:27) Ron Klemm

But it also seems to me to also require a certain attitude. 

(11:31) Sandra Geary

Yes, it does. 

(11:32) Ron Klemm
How so? 

(11:33) Sandra Geary
I feel like I am a helper. It's a responsible job. I don't need to have the limelight. I need to support whoever I'm playing for, whether it be a singer or an instrumentalist, even a chorus.

(11:50) Sandra Geary
I don't need the glory. I'm there to support as much as I can and be musical and inspire them to be more musical by how I play. 

(12:00) A. Dennis Sparger
And certainly I could see that, you know, so many times, especially when you're accompanying the Young Artists Showcase, as I saw just recently, uh, how you take on, you know, the entire orchestral fabric and condense it, you know, into your hands to support them so well. And, you know, all of a sudden I can hear the viola part coming through the piano, or I hear the bass part, or I hear a more delicate passage that's coming through. And so you're not just playing the notes, you're playing really the music.

(12:31) Sandra Geary
I'm singing along with them. 

(12:32) A. Dennis Sparger
Yes. Yeah.

(12:34) Sandra Geary
Yeah, and I, I try to instill that in my students that I teach at Wash U also. Um, it's not about the notes. It's about making music, having something to say. Which is more important. They often say, Oh, what if I make a mistake? Doesn't matter. Make music. 

(12:50) A. Dennis Sparger
We all make mistakes. 

(12:51) Sandra Geary
Yeah, and that's what I tell them.

(12:52) Ron Klemm
Yes, we do. Yes. At what point did you say, you know what, I'd rather be a an accompanist than a concert pianist? And then later about teaching, when did you say? Oh, I should teach this. 

(13:06) Sandra Geary
I would say probably at the Conservatory. I did a little bit of, um, Suzuki book, um, playing for accompanying uh, back home in Ireland during the summertime just for extra money.

(13:17) Sandra Geary
And that was basically the only jobs I ever had during the summer. But I would say I got the accompanying bug during the conservatory years when I did chamber music and accompanying there. And then I probably would have decided when I was in my early twenties. That I wanted to do accompanying other than concert pianist work.

(13:34) Sandra Geary
I read really well. So my memory and my memorization was a little slower. So that was a little bit more cumbersome. Although I love playing solo back then, I prefer to do accompanying now. 

(13:47) A. Dennis Sparger
And then you were inspired to come to St. Louis. 

(13:50) Sandra Geary
By a masterclass that I did in Dublin. Um, I did masterclasses every year from the age of 13.

Um, with various, uh, wonderful concert pianists who came from all over. Um, and Joseph Kalikstein happened to be, uh, Trinity College. And I, I did a two week, uh, Um, class with him. And at the time, I had just won a two year scholarship to London, and I asked his opinion who I should study with, and he said, Well, if you ever consider coming to the States, I teach at Juilliard, and I teach in St. Louis. And I think you're young, and you're kind of sheltered, so maybe St. Louis would be a better fit. And there's only 120 students there, whereas Juilliard is a little cutthroat. So I was glad that I made the decision to come here. 

(14:35) Ron Klemm
Tell us more about Joseph Kalikstein, the man. 

(14:39) Sandra Geary
Wonderful, wonderful person. Um, big into Schumann. 

(14:43) Ron Klemm
Yeah. 

(14:43) Sandra Geary
A wonderful, uh, trio, Laredo Robinson trio. Um, he inspired me a lot to listen, really listen, and take chances. Um, very good technically. He always said that, um, in order to work on technique, find it within your piece. You don't have to do the Hanon exercises. It's all right there.

So that was, that was telling. And that helps with my teaching. No, he was wonderful. Yeah. Very encouraging, too. 

(15:11) Ron Klemm
Tell me about your students and about some of the things that you find more frequently that you have to, uh, correct? Or, or, or, and how do you approach them? 

(15:21) Sandra Geary
Um, hand positions are big. Um, Posture at the piano. I get, uh, crossed legs occasionally, and, uh, oh yeah, oh yeah, uh huh, yeah, but the flat, the flat fingers is the big thing. Really? Yeah, so I give them some exercise to do on a, a table, just curving your fingers, picking up one at a time, and then scales, obviously. 

(15:44) Ron Klemm
How do your students inspire you? 

(15:46) Sandra Geary
They make me think.

I have to think about what I do because I don't always have to think about how, Oh, how do I play that? Oh, okay. So I have to explain in a different way or even in, you know, just show them how to do it correctly. Uh, loose wrists is a big one because some people play very stiff. And so just to get people have the right 

(16:10) Ron Klemm
Fluidity.

(16:11) Sandra Geary
Yeah, exactly. 

(16:13) Ron Klemm
What lessons did you learn, uh, in your schooling, and the, that teachers taught you that you now recognize are the things you must pass on to your own students? 

(16:27) Sandra Geary
Mm, to breathe. 

(16:29) Ron Klemm
Breathe. 

(16:29) Sandra Geary
Mmhmm. Because as pianists, you know, you can get pianists and they can just go and go and go and go. And I think part of my accompanying too helps that.

(16:38) Sandra Geary
You just have to breathe. Let the music breathe. 

(16:41) A. Dennis Sparger
Yeah. 

(16:41) Sandra Geary
Listen. Yeah. Listen. Silences are just as important as the music. And sing, obviously. So a lot to do with voice and speech. That's probably why my life has come 360. I'm working with a lot of singers now. 

(16:57) A. Dennis Sparger
Yes, do you do any singing yourself? 

(16:59) Sandra Geary
I don't, I do in lessons though.

(17:01) A. Dennis Sparger
In lessons?

(17:01) Sandra Geary
Yes, I do. Just to, it just kind of happens.

(17:05) A. Dennis Sparger
I'll have to take a lesson or two.

(17:06) Ron Klemm
To be a fly on the wall.

(17:08) Sandra Geary
Yeah, it's funny. I just kind of, you know, just to inspire the students sometimes. I just happened to let go and I'm like, okay, I do have a voice.

(18:26) Ron Klemm
We have had so many exciting moments with The Bach Society of Saint Louis since you've been with us in the 90s. What are some of the memories that you hold dear from some of our concerts or maybe even from some of our rehearsals. What are some of those moments that stand out for you? 

(18:44) Sandra Geary
Yeah, well, one of them is, and I love the piece so much, and I'm glad we got to do it twice, the Ubi Caritas.

I just love that because I think I find something new every time. Yeah. And I'm, I mean, it's all probably selfish of me because I get to play a lot on that and the chorus doesn't have to sing too much. 

(19:05) A. Dennis Sparger
And that came out of an improvisation. 

(19:07) Sandra Geary
It is! I know. It's a wonderful piece. And I, I mean, I love playing the Bach rep, but I don't get to play that in the orchestra.

So it's nice for me to sit out and just listen to what we've worked on in the rehearsal process. The Christmas concerts, I usually enjoy the Christmas concerts. 

(19:25) A. Dennis Sparger
Don't we all? 

(19:26) Sandra Geary
Yes. 

(19:26) A. Dennis Sparger
They're just lovely. 

(19:27) Sandra Geary
Favorite. Favorite.

(20:05) Ron Klemm
Let's, uh, kind of take a couple of, uh, moments to do some quick hits. 

(20:09) Sandra Geary
Okay. 

(20:11) Ron Klemm
A one or two word answer is fine. 

(20:12) Sandra Geary
Okay. 

(20:13) Ron Klemm
But we want to kind of, uh, draw you out a little bit and get some revelation from you. 

(20:17) Sandra Geary
Okay. 

(20:18) Ron Klemm
What are the greatest misconceptions that I have or anyone else has about Ireland? 

(20:25) Sandra Geary
Oh, wow. Good question. That it always rains? It does, but not all the time. It is very green, you probably know that already. People are very friendly. 

(20:37) Ron Klemm What do you miss the most from your homeland? 

(20:41) Sandra Geary
Uh, the sea. Big time. Yeah, this is so inland here. When I go home, I really enjoy just walking by the seashore because we live right by the sea.

Um, my harbor town actually has cruise ships come in from May through October every year. And so that's one of the things I miss, the scenery, basically. How often do you go back? I go home once a year, but since COVID, I've tried to get home at Christmas also. So I go for the whole summer. 

(21:10) Ron Klemm
And family still there?

(21:11) Sandra Geary
Yes, my mom's still there. And my brother is married with two. Kids who are now teenagers. Yes, growing up fast already. They're getting older. Yeah, and one of them takes piano lessons So I'm happy about that and I meet with them on FaceTime on Sundays and I go over whatever pieces She's working on just to kind of help.

That's fun for me. 

(21:31) Ron Klemm
What do you do to relax? 

(21:32) Sandra Geary
Watch sports. 

(21:33) Ron Klemm
Oh Are we gonna talk about hockey now? 

(21:38) Sandra Geary
Hockey, soccer, you name it, golf. 

(21:40) Ron Klemm
What's the Blues problem, really?

(21:42) Sandra Geary
I don't know. I wish I could put a finger on it. Yeah. I don't think it's a coach problem. 

(21:46) Ron Klemm
No, I don't think so either. We won't go into that. If you could communicate one thing from your experience with The Bach Society, what would it be?

(21:56) Sandra Geary
Friendship. 

(21:57) Ron Klemm
Really? 

(21:57) Sandra Geary
Yep. Making some wonderful friendships over the years. Just the community. Everybody is so appreciative, always. 

(22:04) A. Dennis Sparger
Just a wonderful group of people. 

(22:06) Sandra Geary
It is a wonderful group of people. 

(22:07) A. Dennis Sparger
So warm and inviting. 

(22:08) Sandra Geary
Totally. 

(22:09) A. Dennis Sparger
Many have commented on how, you know, when they come into the group as a new person, how quickly they're accepted.

(22:15) Sandra Geary
Absolutely. 

(22:16) A. Dennis Sparger
Become one of the whole. 

(22:18) Sandra Geary
Exactly, and over the years made some wonderful friends, gone to games with them, hockey games, etc. 

(22:23) Ron Klemm
Are you recognized in an audience as to the fact that you're with The Bach Society, or do you kind of go incognito? 

(22:31) Sandra Geary
Oh yeah, I'm recognized. Yeah, in fact, at a concert last night, there were a lot of people from, there were some Bach people there, I think, but some Webster people, and yeah, I was definitely recognized.

Just being out there, I think, accompanying, not just for The Bach Society, but I know people see me, but I don't always see who they are, and they'll come up to me and say, Oh, we saw you at so and so. But it's been a busy April so far. I'm thankful, but it has been busy. 

(22:57) A. Dennis Sparger
I was just curious, how many hours a day do you work?

(23:00) Sandra Geary
Well, I started at 10:30 this morning and I stopped at 5:30. Yeah, so every day is a little different. And that's what I love about my job, it's very varied. 

(23:10) A Dennis Sparger.
Seems like you're always coming and going from one rehearsal or lesson to another. 

(23:15) Ron Klemm
Thank you. 

(23:16) Sandra Geary
You're welcome. 

(23:16) Ron Klemm
You've been a joy to be with.

(23:18) Sandra Geary
Thank you.

(23:18) Ron Klemm
As you always are. 

(23:19) Sandra Geary
Thank you.

(23:33) Ron Klemm
Musical portions today featured pianist Sandra Geary, some taken from concert performances by The Bach Society of Saint Louis. Others in a special recording session at Jazz Saint Louis. All selections were captured by The Bach Society's Grammy Award winning recording engineer, Paul Henrich.

The associate producer of Bach Talk is Scott MacDonald. Marketing and technical assistance provided by Andie Murphy. and Charissa Marciniak of The Right Relations. I'm Ron Klemm. Subscribe to Bach Talk wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more at bachsociety.org. Bach Talk is a registered trademark of The Bach Society of Saint Louis.

About Episode 10

In Episode 10 of Bach Talk, host Ron Klemm and Stephen chat through music, mentorship and teamwork. He shares his journey from growing up in Belleville, Illinois, to leading a professional choir and highlights the important role his family and mentors like A. Dennis Sparger have had on his career. Explore Stephen's passion for leading both a church choir and a professional ensemble, and learn how he brings depth to music through meaningful text.

Transcription

Ron Klemm (00:00)
This is Bach Talk.

None of us ever do great things, but we can do small things with great love, and together we can do something wonderful.

Mother Teresa's celebrated words ring true, and nowhere are they more validated than in the creation of great music

Teamwork, it's something we hear a lot about, in sports, in the business world, in many of life's collaborative endeavors. It's something that defines a great artistic ensemble too, a symphony orchestra, for example, or a dance troupe or a highly trained choir. The Bach Society of Saint Louis has thrived for more than 80 years under the direction of some magnificent leadership.

Current music director and conductor Dennis Sparger has defined the top role since the mid 80s. But it takes more than one person's efforts to be successful over the better part of a century. It takes a team.

I'm Ron Klemm. Welcome to Bach Talk. Today, we'll meet an important member of that team. We'll chat with assistant conductor Stephen Eros. We'll learn about that kid from Belleville, Illinois, and how he grew to play such a crucial role in the life of The Bach Society of Saint louis. Let's talk about something that I know is easy for you to talk about. Talk about your family.

Stephen Eros (02:27)
Well, my wife Jamie, we've been married for 10 years and knew each other for a few years before that and she has two sons who are now almost 19 and 17 And our children together are, um, going to be eight this summer and just turned six going on twenty six. And, uh, each one of them is a handful in their own right. And, um, and teaches us something about being better parents and people every day. 

Ron Klemm (02:57)
What's the family dynamic like? Who's the one who makes all the decisions? 

Stephen Eros (03:01)
Oh. 

Ron Klemm (03:02)
The six-year-old?

Stephen Eros (03:03)
Oh, it depends on the moment. Yeah, I just listened to David Gordon's episode that he did and when he described the Bach home, I'm like, okay, I don't feel so bad now.

Uh, you know, we don't have like 20 running around and like random people staying with us, but it's, it's pretty chaotic. Cause, um, she's a musician also. And, um, you know, neither of us work nine to five, five days a week. Um, you know, we're fortunate to have flexible schedules. Um, and sometimes that comes with a little lighter season, but when it's busy, it's busy. Um, and that leads me to my next door neighbors, which are my parents. 

Ron Klemm (03:44)
Really? 

Stephen Eros (03:45)
Yeah. They moved. 

Ron Klemm (03:46)
Oh, tell me about that dynamic. 

Stephen Eros (03:48)
Oh, it's great.

Ron Klemm (03:49)
Is it? 

Stephen Eros (03:49)
So, um, we live in our, in my grandmother's, um, home, which, which is where my mom grew up for, from like junior high on. And so we bought that house in 2017 and we're living there, it's, you know, under weird family circumstances for a few years before that.

Um, my parents lived five minutes away from us. So in the pandemic. actually like right at the beginning, um, my neighbor next to us who is 90 some years old, passed away before the pandemic. So that was good for her. 

Ron Klemm (04:23)
Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen Eros (04:24)
Um, and my parents bought the house for a steal and we did a lot of cosmetic stuff and yeah, so that's going on four years now that they live there. So it's neat. I mean, we have a little compound and actually, um, when Jamie's mom passed a few years ago, her dad moved in just like three minutes down the road from us. So if there's a family dinner, or I should say this, if there's a time where we sit down for dinner at a table, Usually those three parents are there with us and all the kids.

And so, um, my family's amazing. 

Ron Klemm (05:00)
If you voted as a block, you could sway an election. Probably. 

Stephen Eros (05:05)
She is an alderman for the city of Belleville. That's right. 

Ron Klemm (05:08)
Well, we could, this could take a dramatic turn at this point. 

Stephen Eros (05:11)
Let's stay the course. 

Ron Klemm (05:14)
Well, tell me about then growing up. What was life like? Where did you grow up? And, and, uh, what were the circumstances and how did you first get involved with music? Let's say.

Stephen Eros (05:24)
Oh my gosh, I grew up in Belleville. I'm actually, I'm a lifelong Belleville resident. I've lived there all through my college years. I was a commuter student. Um, and like I said, my parents grew up or I grew up in my parents home five minutes away from where I currently live.

Um, I went to my grandmother's house where I now live after school. Um, and school was at St. Mary's, which is just like two or three blocks away from that house. And, um, so I, I would go to my grandmother's house every day after school. Um, both grandmothers and the, the (06:00) one whose house I live in now has a Wurlitzer piano.

And it was, it was the family piano in Chester, Illinois. It's a Wurlitzer, um, uh, spinet. And I grew up playing that by ear and all of my mom's siblings Siblings one through five took piano lessons from the piano teacher in Chester, because there's only one of everything in Chester. Um, and when the piano teacher died, My mom's sister and her did not get piano lessons and my grandmother never lived that down.

So, uh, but I benefited from the piano because I would go there after school, preschool and kindergarten and just plunk out things by ear. Um, you know, things that I heard at choir rehearsal when I went with my parents and songs that I would hear in church and yeah. 

Ron Klemm (06:49)
What, so what prompted it? What, what drew you like a magnet to that keyboard?

Stephen Eros (06:56)
My parents, whether they knew it or not, because, um, like I said, I, I was an only, I am an only child. And so I guess I was just carted everywhere. Um, and so I would go to choir rehearsal. Um, I mean, then of course be in the choir loft on Sunday mornings and yeah. And, and, um, I, at that age, that's, I guess what drew me in.

Um, my dad is, um, The charter member of the Masterworks Chorale founded by our own Dennis Sparger and, um, that was a big part of his life. Although it was not a part of my life until I was a little older than the age that I'm talking about now. Um, so yeah, music is just, it's, it's in the blood. 

Ron Klemm (07:42)
Move forward from there. Where, where, when did it become serious stuff for you? 

Stephen Eros (07:49)
I guess I'm lucky to, so I, I don't know. Um, I, I figured out at some point in high school, you know, I, I thought about, Oh, it'd be neat to be, um, You name it the career that makes money, you know But it's just like not practical and then it just sort of settled on music but I was never and I'm very fortunate to have never had the experience of being under pressure from my parents to Be an overachiever And so I was never I would say I don't know when it got serious And maybe that's a good thing.

Ron Klemm (08:21)
I think so. 

Stephen Eros (08:22)
It was always fun and I Uh, you know, through, through grade school and junior high, you know, I was just involved in band. I was in the chorus for a little bit. Uh, you know, we did some, some musicals and then I went into high school and we had a very good high school program at Belville West, um, by, ran by Tom Berkner, who's also a student of Dennis.

And he, Tom Berkner just opened up so many new doors for me. Um, and I had so many great experiences in high school, but again, it was never, uh, This very competitive What I'm going to call an unhealthy competitive culture in high school. 

Ron Klemm (08:59)
It can be. 

Stephen Eros (09:01)
And I see it a lot in a lot of our high schools now. And someone graduates after four years of that, and they're totally turned off by music.

They have no interest in continuing. So I was fortunate that it's always been that way. Fun.

Ron Klemm (09:17)
So tell me about the other mentors. All roads seem to lead to Dennis, but let's talk about the other mentors, uh, in your life and who comes to mind immediately and jumps out as someone who really, really, really Helped you or changed your path or your your approach or your your focus 

Stephen Eros (09:36)
Well so far I've mentioned Dennis, Tom Berkner, my parents. The main one that we haven't gotten to is in college. So again, because this never really was like serious cutthroat stuff.

It's like, well, I guess I'll go to college for music. What am I doing? Um, you know, I had taken organ lessons. Um, and so I signed up for an organ performance degree, (10:00) not really knowing what that meant or what, where it could lead. Um, and then I got into college as a band kid. I was a band kid all through high school.

Ron Klemm (10:09)
What'd you play? 

Stephen Eros (10:10)
Trumpet. And, um, my grade school band director was Vicky Smolik, who was our, um, recently deceased, uh, local union president. And she had a lot to do with, with where I am now. And was with me since fourth grade, you know, through, you know, recent years. Um, so I signed up for an organ performance degree and then choir was part of my degree because that's that's how Webster's had it set up 

Ron Klemm (10:42)
Webster University in St. Louis. Yep. 

Stephen Eros (10:44)
So all of a sudden I was in choir. I'm like, oh, this is pretty cool And then My sophomore year, um, Kathy Bowers retired from Webster and we got a new director, Trent Patterson, who is there now. And Trent really steered me in the direction of, of being a choral director.

Um, because I had opportunities in my undergraduate degree that not many people are afforded. Um, and that's one of the reasons that I, I love my time at Webster because, um, it's a good school, but it's, again, it's not cutthroat. So a lowly undergrad organ performance major, you know, can start leading choir sectionals and taking rehearsal if someone's sick or actually Trent's son just had a birthday.

I remember, um, when Benjamin was born, I had rehearsals that day. So, um, it was at Webster that I was really put on the path to be a choral conductor. And so I, I finished up my organ performance degree and oh, by the way, Pat Partridge, my organ professor, um, I, I can't say enough about him again, just, um, a true gentleman.

Again, not cutthroat, um, and probably should have been a little harder on me when I needed it. Uh, looking back, um, but yeah, so Pat was, Pat was again, instrumental in my, my college years. Um, yeah. So I finished my organ degree in 2013 and it was around that time actually that I sang with The Bach Society Chorus for the Rachmaninoff It was the Divine Liturgy, I think we did, and, uh, Dennis had kind of emailed me out of the blue because he was looking for, you know, more male voices to fill out the section. And then after that, I got an invitation from him to be his assistant with The Bach Society. 

Ron Klemm (12:54)
Um, and, and how. How did that come about and what was your reaction when you first got that invitation? 

Stephen Eros (13:04)
Um, total shock. You know, cause again, Dennis and I have known each other since, you know, I was, whatever, negative 20 years old.

Um, but he's known me since birth and, and I, you know, Masterworks Chorale concerts and, um, Um, Yeah. So I guess we just sort of kept touch and then, and then, um, like, you know, he's sort of followed my college years, I guess. And then again, I don't really know what prompted the invitation to sing the Rachmaninoff, but then here I was, I, and I got the invitation to be the assistant and I look back and what's so special for me now, and I'm trying to pass on to other young people is how I've looked back and seen. how many people in my life have given me a chance. And that's not blind. Um, it takes a lot of, of thought and discretion on the part of whoever's asking. Um, but Dennis is one of those people. Um, Trent is one of those people, Tom Berkner for sure. Um, Hey, I think you would be good at this. Why don't you give it a try?

And I realize now just. Those were the best experiences and have been the best experiences and have pushed me the farthest in this job at being a musician. So that's, I don't, that's, that's how it came about. I mean, it was not, we had not talked about it. It was not really presented or an option or, and of course it started off very, minimal, which again, smart on his part, he, um, he knew that I was going into a graduate degree in choral conducting at, you know, after my great experience as an undergrad, I wanted to continue through and do two more years focusing on, on choral music.

So that was really like a sort of a hand in hand thing, the Bach society and Webster working together in this next part of my, my journey. Yeah. 

Ron Klemm (15:11)
That's Stephen Eros Assistant Conductor of The Bach Society of Saint Louis. I'm Ron Klemm, and this is Bach Talk.

Ron Klemm (15:49)
What is the role of the Assistant Conductor of the Bach Society of St. Louis as you see it? Don't, don't give me a job description. I'm not interested. What, what, what is your role as our Assistant Conductor? 

Stephen Eros (16:02)
And other duties as a No. Um. That's a good question, because, as I mentioned, it started off very cautiously, I'll say, um, I will never forget getting an email from Dennis.

Oh, and you'll be prepared to conduct this piece on Monday at rehearsal, right? And the answer is always yes. 

Ron Klemm (16:25)
Regardless of what the truth is. 

Stephen Eros (16:27)
I, yeah, yes, I will be prepared. Um, so yeah, I mean, it started off again, very small and with. Conducting opportunities that were appropriate to my skill level at that time.

And then it really grew. Um, and I don't know, I couldn't give you a timeline, but you know, there was a point that, you know, basically at every concert, excluding the major Bach work concert, I was conducting one to four pieces, um, and a variety of pieces. And then all of a sudden, um, I, you know, I get, I got to choose.

Ssome of those, or I, you know, like, okay, choose five or, you know, choose three from these five or whatever. And then it became, oh, send me some ideas of something you'd like to conduct. So, um, it's just, it's really evolved over the past now, um, almost, no, 11 years. Um, And then in the last couple of years, like really, since we've like fired up since COVID, I would say, um, I've been involved in more meetings and behind the scenes stuff and planning and special projects.

Ron Klemm (17:40)
Tell me about, um, I'm trying, I always try to tie things together for better, for worse, but tell me about your organist background and how you see that helping you in this role. In this role with the Bach Society. 

Stephen Eros (17:56)
Um, I'll expand even further in college. I realized because again, I'm, I'm a band kid. Uh, who plays piano and I'm doing an organ performance degree.

And in high school, I got really interested in jazz because that was Tom Berkner's I would, I would say his passion, um, is, is jazz music. And so I was in the top jazz band. I got a lot of great opportunities there. And then, so I have all of these different pieces I'm trying to put together. And I was in the pit orchestra for the spring musical, and that was amazing.

So I got really into musical theater and trying to figure out like, what do I do with all this? And I realized that, I am getting, like I'm taking pieces of everything and applying it in different parts of my life. There are skills as a musical theater pianist that I use as whatever, a choral conductor or an organist and vice versa.

Stephen Eros (18:47)
Um, I mean specifically when you're playing the organ you are focused on so many things. Um, two feet, two hands, um, You name it, like a minimum of three keyboards, 

Ron Klemm (19:04)
Right? But also tempo and leadership of singing and so on, 

Stephen Eros (19:09)
Right? You're, you're leading, you know, 350 people behind you, 

Ron Klemm (19:13)
Right? 

Stephen Eros (19:13)
You're leading the choir in front of you.

Stephen Eros (19:15)
You're conducting them as needed. And as a choral conductor who plays the organ, you have trained your choir to watch for the right things because you are not in front of them at all times. With every beat and every gesture But they know when the hand pops up they better be watching 

Ron Klemm (19:34)
Or the eyebrows or whatever it 

Stephen Eros (19:36)
Exactly or the head Yeah, you know, I'll joke in rehearsal like, you know, whoever doesn't watch gets to pay my chiropractor bill And so I I've learned a lot about I guess efficiency in in conducting from from being an organist conducting a choir at that time, because, you know, maybe the left hand is all you have at that moment.

Stephen Eros (19:58)
Maybe your head, your head is all you have at that moment. Uh, maybe your facial expressions are all you have at that moment. And they just, they know to watch. So. 

Ron Klemm (20:08)
Let's dig a little deeper into the whole subject of church music. And, um, about, well, let's start with you and your particular, uh, work. And I'm, I'm a Protestant, so you're going to have to educate me, but what is the scope of, of what you do at, uh, and the church is again?

Stephen Eros (20:27)
Saint Clare of Assisi.

Ron Klemm (20:28)
In O'Fallon, Illinois. Um, so tell us what your responsibilities are there. 

Stephen Eros (20:35)
Catholic parishes are very different than Protestant churches, mostly in we are understaffed. So I am a, I'm liturgy and music, which means, um, a lot of administration work that I've learned how to do in the last, um, almost 10 years of that position.

Stephen Eros (20:55)
Um, and now it's sort of second nature, which is great because, um, I would like to focus on music, um, and really making things happen. Um, so I'm in charge of all of our liturgical ministries, which is basically anyone who is performing a task within the liturgy, um, you know, a minister of communion and usher, um, those who proclaim the scriptures, you name it.

Stephen Eros (21:19)
If they're doing it at mass, ultimately I'm responsible for them. The scheduling, the training, and we have about 475 people on our roster at St. Clair, and it is a very dynamic, engaged community. And again, just working with people is, I've realized how much I love working with people. Because they make it happen and my job is to empower them and that's it.

Stephen Eros (21:45)
Um, so yeah. And then we have, we have an adult choir of about 45 members. We have, um, yeah, very, very fortunate I should say, because Catholic, Protestant, whatever, um, that's uncommon now. 

Ron Klemm (22:02)
No, that's right. 

Stephen Eros (22:04)
And, and it was about 20 to 25 people. When I got there. And what I would consider standard choral rep, what you probably would as well, um, was nowhere to be seen.

Stephen Eros (22:15)
So I built numbers, I built repertoire, I've built skill and they're pretty darn good. And they're a lot of fun too. Uh, we don't have any paid section leaders. It is all volunteer. We have a handful of people who have really strong musical backgrounds. We have a couple of people with music degrees and We're just so fortunate to have what we have.

Stephen Eros (22:42)
I've got a children's choir, um, 1st through 4th grade, um, and then 5th through 8th grade. Combined number is about 40. Um, again, that's nearly doubled. From, well, first of all, from one choir to two choirs and then the number total has doubled. Um, it's an extracurricular choir. Um, so it meets once, once a week and I'm 30 minutes with the little folks and in an hour with the big folks and the big folks are my biggest challenge, actually.

Ron Klemm (23:10)
Why am I not surprised? 

Stephen Eros (23:12)
And so again, just building skill and repertoire over the last several years and working with kids. That was my, this is my first job working with kids. You talk about a learning curve. Cause I did, I did not do any education training. I thought I wanted to, and I'm like, Oh, that's too many classes.

Um, so I stuck with my performance degree. Uh, but just like sort of treating them as professionals gets you pretty far. Yeah. Um, and just like being clear with your expectations, that gets you pretty far 

Ron Klemm (23:42)
And demonstrating they'll soak it up. 

Stephen Eros (23:44)
Oh yeah. They, they can, they can learn anything you can teach them.

Whether it's English or Latin or Gregorian chant or Mozart or Bach. 

Ron Klemm (23:56)
Isn't that something?

Stephen Eros (23:57)
I mean, it's just, it's amazing. It is. You've got to figure out (24:00) and respond in the moment a lot of times. Oh, they're not, I had this great plan, but it's not working. How can I pivot? 

Ron Klemm (24:07)
Yeah. 

Stephen Eros (24:07)
Um, So, yeah, that's a brief scope and then I'm, I'm the organist. I have no assistant. So yeah. 

Ron Klemm (24:16)
So let's talk, talk about then coming to the Bach Society and what you have to do when dealing with professionals. When you make that transition from your volunteer, uh, church musicians to, uh, a highly, uh, skilled choir like ours, what switches do you have to flip and what stay on?

Ron Klemm (24:44)
What, what, what is the same? What is different? How do you make those kinds of adjustments? 

Stephen Eros (24:50)
It's so interesting because, um, that was, that was my biggest learning curve coming to the Bach Society. As you can imagine, because the first time I conducted them, I'm like, oh, that sounds great. Let's go on. You know, it's like, what do I say?

Uh, you know, I just, uh, finished my college degree. I really have not a lot of qualifications to do this. And so it's intimidating. Um, and as a new member too, I mean, like, I don't know these people and I'm going to tell them like, Oh, you guys need to work on that. No. Um, so again, that is, that's come with time and training my ears.

Ron Klemm (25:25)
And, mutual respect. 

Stephen Eros (25:28)
Oh, for sure. That's any choir, whether I'm working with the first through fourth graders or the Bach society, there has to be mutual respect. There has to be a sense of ensemble and team, and we are all in this. Um, you know, for a purpose. So, yeah, I mean, obviously there, I can use my formal musical training and all, you know, the terminology and just more directly with, with professional singers, um, and then with volunteer singers, you can teach them those things that, you know, it might take them a while to get it, uh, or to remember what it is in that moment.

Um, but then you also have to teach them concepts differently. Uh, then you, you can't just like say, do this, uh, you might have to give an example. You might have to do more, more vocal modeling, which is something that I was encouraged to do in my choral training. Um, because all of a sudden they hear it like, Oh, that makes sense. Um, and so, yeah, explaining through modeling versus vocal training. 

Ron Klemm (26:35)
That's Stephen Eros, Assistant Conductor of The Bach Society of Saint Louis. I'm Ron Klemm and this is Bach Talk.

Ron Klemm (27:13)
I want to talk about music in general. In, um, a different context. I want to talk about it, uh, as it relates to text. Since you're involved with church music, we're also dealing here with The Bach Society with music that is so often written by some of the greatest church musicians in history. When you approach this music, how much does the text play into it?

Stephen Eros (27:43)
Oh, uh, text always plays into it. And, and, um, if we're talking sacred music, liturgical context is, is huge for me, um, because like my choir at church or our repertoire lists, you know, we've, with everything combined, probably close to 300 pieces a year we sing, and it's all based on context. Two anthems a week, a communion antiphon, you know, a choral gospel acclamation verse, hymn settings.

I mean, so all of those things are, it's not like my favorite things. Um, and, uh, and educating others on how I do that job is important because I am the servant of whatever is put in front of me as far as the lectionary, um, the church's liturgy goes in this, the season, um, the Sunday in that particular season.

So context is huge for me. And so I'm always looking at what is, what does this text mean? What part of scripture is it coming from? What context did For instance, we're preparing the motets, Bach's six motets now. And, um, he composed many of them for funerals. And some of those, you know, perhaps is very obvious, but then some of them are very joyous.

Ron Klemm (28:58)
Absolutely. 

Stephen Eros (28:59)
But then you go back to that original context of this was composed for a funeral. And that informs, I think a lot of what, what we're doing. Um, so yeah, looking at sources and also what the composer's intent was. is always very important for me. 

Ron Klemm (29:19)
Talk to me about the concept of music as comfort, and how music can penetrate where words alone cannot.

Stephen Eros (29:32)
I'm going to go to a very like basic Catholic liturgical principle, and that is that music elevates words. Um, you don't see this everywhere. In fact, most places you probably don't, um, but what we call the dialogues, anytime the priest, um, gives, you know, uh, an invitation to the people, and then they respond like the Lord be with you and with your spirit would be the most recognizable perhaps, um, for those dialogues to be sung or for what we call the presidential prayers. That the priest praise and the people respond, amen, for those to be sung is elevating that text to a higher place. And I remember when my son was, um, very young, perhaps maybe three years old and he's like all over the pew, you know, I'm over here and he's over with mom and that's already tough. That's a different episode. 

Ron Klemm (30:29)
Yes. 

Stephen Eros (30:29)
But he's doing his thing and then all of a sudden Father Jim starts he chants Let us pray and the server comes over with the Roman Missal the red book and presents it and Samuel's attention was immediately on father Jim at that moment.

Ron Klemm (30:43)
Really?

Stephen Eros (30:43)
And that that told me that this is important. And even the youngest people know that when they hear something being sung, that it's not every day, it's not an everyday thing. And so music elevates words and that I, there are, I can probably list a handful of pieces or moments in pieces that I will never be able to sing in concerts because the emotion takes over.

And I don't know if that's something you can really explain. And everyone has their pieces and their moments, but music just does that, great music touches the soul. 

Ron Klemm (31:30)
From the sublime to this. What do you do to relax? You're, you're done. You've done a a whole bunch of stuff and finally have a day off. What are you going to do? 

Stephen Eros (31:42) 
A day off. I don't know.

Ron Klemm (31:44)
When, when did you have a day off last? 

Stephen Eros (31:47)
Oh, it's, Oh, maybe not a day, maybe time. 

Ron Klemm (31:51)
Okay. Just a little time. 

Stephen Eros (31:52)
Um, we had a gathering at our house yesterday afternoon for Jamie's birthday. Had some friends over. Um, Friday is my day off. And because again, Jamie works a non traditional schedule. She's also off. So Friday is our day to hang out.

I like to garden. So actually I was, I was gardening a little bit yesterday. Um, I like doing yard work. It's therapeutic. So yeah, because music is such a big part of my life. It's not necessarily. I don't know. It's like, it's a hobby too, but to get away from it. 

Ron Klemm (32:23)
So when you want to relax, what music do you listen to? What kind of music? Something other than Bach? 

Stephen Eros (32:31)
No, I wouldn't say I have, well, maybe the most obscure would be like jazz. You know, I'm not like, Oh, I love to listen to heavy metal. No, I don't have any like surprises like that, but I do love jazz music and it's not something that I get to perform a lot. Um, so I'll listen to that.

I find that, um, if it's So like vocal or choral music is too distracting for me to listen to for like relaxing because my my brain turns on but like listen to like Bill Evans or or like Keith Jarrett, yeah 

Ron Klemm (33:04)
Good stuff.

Musical portions today featured selections from concert performances by The Bach Society of Saint louis, conducted by assistant conductor Stephen Eros. We also heard organist Stephen Eros from a recital in Belleville, Illinois's historic St. Peter Cathedral in March of 2022.

The associate producer of Bach Talk is Scott McDonald. Marketing and technical assistance provided by Andie Murphy and Charissa Marciniak of The Right Relations. Subscribe to Bach Talk wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more at bachsociety. org.

Bach Talk is a registered trademark of The Bach Society of Saint Louis. I'm Ron Klemm.

About Episode 9

A professor, musician and concertmaster all in one! Violinist Lenora-Marya Anop joins host Ron Klemm and Maestro A. Dennis Sparger to discuss the challenges and rewards of interpreting Bach's music and more. She shares the story of her musical journey, from her start with Suzuki lessons at age three to her most recent triumph at Carnegie Hall. In her role as Concertmaster with The Bach Society Orchestra for nearly 25 years, her passion for Bach's music continues to shine, and her joyful, collaborative spirit continues to bring musical magic to the stage.

About Episode 8

Explore the intriguing world of Johann Sebastian Bach with this captivating Bach Talk episode featuring tenor, author, historian, and Bach expert David Gordon. Join host Ron Klemm as they uncover fascinating details about Bach's daily life in Leipzig, Germany during the 18th century. Gordon challenges misconceptions about Bach as a stern figure, highlighting his sense of humor, love of life and the importance of his family. Don’t miss the opportunity to gain a unique perspective on Bach's life and times.

Transcription

Ron Klemm (00:00)
This is Bach Talk.

Ron Klemm (00:11)
No, this is not Bach. 

David Gordon (00:15)
Down by the Salley Garden My love and I did meet. 

Ron Klemm (00:26)
But there is a connection. 

David Gordon (00:28)
She walked the Salley Gardens with little snow-white feet. 

Ron Klemm (00:40)
I'll explain in a moment. 

David Gordon (00:42)
She bid me take life easy as the leaves grow on the trees. 

Ron Klemm (00:54)
For now, let's just enjoy.

Ron Klemm (01:08)
He's a Bach specialist who sometimes finds himself outside the box.

Ron Klemm (02:10)
The iridescent voice of tenor, David Gordon, Outside the Box was the title of his most recent concert in Carmel, California. That was a track from that concert. The traditional folk song with words from the great Irish poet, William Butler Yeats. Hello, I'm Ron Klemm. Welcome to Bach Talk. By his own admission, David Gordon has always led parallel musical lives.

For decades, he's been a distinguished classical music tenor soloist, who's made his mark with great opera companies and symphony orchestras around the globe. Here's some mind-boggling trivia. David made his United States concert debut at Powell Symphony Hall in 1972 with The Bach Society of Saint Louis.

These days, David no longer sings on the classical stage, but is still, as he says, quite securely strapped to his guitar. Drawing on a lifetime of concerts and centuries of music, David creates unique programs of songs and poetry interwoven with colorful, historical narratives. Historical narrative. That's the aspect we want to focus on today.

David Gordon is, perhaps above all else, a historian. And he's written a book that is so fascinating, so intriguing, The Bach Society has linked it to our own website. You'll want a copy for yourself, I'm sure. So while you listen to David and I talk about it, feel free to wander over to BachSociety.org, click on About, and there you'll find The Little Bach Book.

We talked to tenor, author, historian, and friend, David Gordon, from his home in Pacific Grove, California. 

David Gordon (04:12)
I have always been a history buff, and I'm aware that very often we learn about history by learning the dates of battles and the names of kings. That's a kind of an overstatement, but it's not too far from the truth.

And I've always been interested in how people lived. In olden times, I grew up in a very beautiful area of southeastern Pennsylvania, north of Philadelphia, along the Delaware River in beautiful Bucks County. And my grandparents lived right up the road in a house that was built in 1758. And there was a, there was just tons of 18th-century revolutionary colonial history in the area where I grew up.

And I became interested in daily life. How did they live? How did they cook? I'm sort of interested in that for all eras of history. And  I began to midway through my career, I began to receive invitations to give lectures on Bach and his music, particularly pre-concert lectures for people who are going to hear the music.

And while I talk about the individual pieces of music, I, began to Insert vignettes of daily life that I hoped would give people a greater appreciation for what Bach had to go through to just write his music. What was his daily life like? And  I took in, for example, I have a little 18th-century inkwell and I made some quill pens and I took it in and just set it on the podium.

I didn't mention it until the very end. I was talking about the St. Matthew Passion. And I said, now, you're going to go upstairs now to the concert hall, and you're going to hear this great work written for two choruses and two orchestras and a bunch of soloists and unusual instruments, and it's going to last about three hours.

And I picked up one of the quill pens, and I said, every note you hear was written with one of these and I saw the look in people's eye because Show and tell is better than tell I could have said every note You hear was written by with a with a quill pen or something and people imagine the quill pen in the high school play Which is a long ostrich quill giant.

Ron Klemm (06:41)
Right, right.

David Gordon (06:42)
And, the quill pens that Bach was using and buying in bulk were just feathers out of the left-hand wing of the goose. It's the left-hand wing because that's the one that curls away from the right-handed writer's arm. 

Ron Klemm (06:58)
Oh, really? 

David Gordon (06:58)
Yeah. Isn't that, isn't that this, all this crazy little trivia. 

Ron Klemm (07:01)
So there's, so if you were left-handed, you'd have to get a quill from the other side of the goose. 

David Gordon (07:06)
That's correct. Yes. If you look at a quill, you, if you look at a, at a, at a feather, a goose feather, this is a, the main feather from the wing of the goose and it, it curves in a certain way.

And so you want it to kind of curve away from you. When I began to use props like this, or a fake candle that I had made to, to look like a candle that would have been used in 1720s, I saw the glow in people's eyes that this was fascinating to them, and I believe that it brings us closer to Bach as a human being, instead of just the marble bust on the music teacher's piano.

And of course, people began to say, well, have you written this down? Have you written about this? So I began to do some research into daily life. And one of the first things I did was to buy a wonderful book called Evening's Empire. Which is a story of conquering the night with artificial illumination.

It's a history of artificial illumination. And that led me to the realization of how utterly mind-bogglingly primitive interior home lighting was in Bach's time. Staggeringly surprising that nothing had changed in terms of artificial illumination for thousands of years. 

Ron Klemm (08:28)
Right. 

David Gordon (08:28)
They were still heating, not heating, they were still lighting their homes the way the Egyptians had lit their homes 2, 500 years before.

And that set me on the trail. I thought, I thought, I need to learn more about this. I knew a lot about Bach. There's a lot of vignettes in my book of, of, of his career. And most of them are vignettes that. The Bach aficionados are familiar with. But in between, in the book, I don't discuss any of his music. I talk about his career as a musician and in between what was life like back then.

And the lighting was more than anything what did it for me. And the more I got into it, the more I realized that no one had ever actually written a book exactly like this. Which is a book about Bach, but, but discussing, focusing really on the daily life during his era. And that's a subject that really interests me.

I began to share bits and pieces of what I was writing with the lecture audiences and I saw their enthusiasm. But basically the, the bottom line is what motivated me was the glow in people's eyes when I talked about daily life in Bach's time. It's 300 years ago. I mean, we're, this is the year of the St. John Passion. It was premiered in April, 300 years ago. And that's a long time. How do we reach over? How do we bridge over those gaps? Decades over those centuries and, and meet Johan Sebastian Bach as a career man, an employee. He was an employee all his life. He was not a superstar. He was not wealthy. He always worked for a salary.

He had a large family, which a lot of people know very well. We, we're, we're aware of the 20 children. The details of the lives of the 20 children are filled with tragedy because so many of them died at an early age, 

Ron Klemm (10:33)
Right.

David Gordon (10:34)
What was that like? What was, how did they do the laundry? What did they, what did they eat?

And the more I delved into it, the more fascinated I became and my wife Jenna says that I suffer from something she calls research rapture Which is I don't, I don't, I don't want the research to end because I figured just around the corner if I just Look up this little fragment. I'm gonna learn something else and And This book for me, and in my life as a performer and lecturer, I, I like to find these aha things.

I think, oh, wow, I didn't know that. Wow, that really, wow, that expands my awareness in some way. And then the very next thing is I want to tell that to other people. I like sharing that. I like 

Ron Klemm (11:24)
Yeah. 

David Gordon (11:24)
Sharing things that are a little surprising. And, and in this case, bringing us closer to the humanity of a composer who has been So important to me and in my musical life.

Ron Klemm (11:36)
We're talking to author and tenor and research rat David Gordon, more in just a moment. I'm Ron Klem. This is Bach Talk.

Ron Klemm (12:05)
You talked a little bit about some of the contexts where Bach lived and, and his what things were like around him. Tell us a little bit about. Where he lived. Tell us a little bit about the Leipzig of Box Day. This was a bustling place, wasn't it? 

David Gordon (12:26)
Right. Leipzig was at the intersection of two ancient Roman trade routes.

And from the get go, Leipzig had been a major trade center. And they were big trade fairs there every year, the merchandise flowing north and south and east and west. And when Bach was there, it was a pretty bustling town of about 30, 000 people. 

Ron Klemm (12:51)
Wow. 

David Gordon (12:52)
There was a, it was a, it is, it was and is a beautiful walled city. It is. With wide boulevards and wide streets outside the city gates and beer gardens and beautiful villas. It was a very busy city.

It had around a dozen churches, including the big main churches that Bach was responsible for managing the music in and it was a thriving city because of all the trade.

And it was also a very progressive city. It was one of the first cities to try out streetlights. In the second decade of the 18th century, they were weak, but they were there and they changed, the streetlights changed Europe and it changed the world because it meant that people could go out at night.

It meant they could gather in the burgeoning coffee houses. And there were large, we call them coffee houses now, but that's, they were really restaurants that served wine and beer and sold cigars and sold coffee. So Leipzig was a busy town. Bach had a lot of jobs there. He was in charge of the churches, four churches, two of which he had to deal with personally.

He taught music in this boys' choir school. It was a boarding school for boys and those boys supplied the tenor and alto voices for the church music making. And, the school was a big building, a five story building and Bach's home was one third of that building from the basement to the attic and his home was always bustling and filled with people.

A lot of people lived in the Bach household. His two oldest daughters who were unmarried lived with them, with Bach and Anna Magdalena their entire life. Anna Magdalena's sister lived with them. There were always students and. Other guests there, it was a busy time and,  the town itself was as modern as you could be in the 1720s.

There was a river running by and they they built water wheels and pumps. On the edge of the river to pump water through the town and that pumped water to these various fountains where people would go and collect water and bring it back to their kitchens and boil it before they drank it. It also enabled them to pump water through the storm gutters where people threw all their detritus, their garbage and their human waste.

I have some photos in the book where you can, you can see that these storm gutters. In these broad plazas, you can see these gutters flowing through and people have built little bridges over them to walk over them because they would have been filled with the foulest of stuff. And but 

Ron Klemm (15:54)
Stank to high heaven, I'll bet.

David Gordon (15:56)
Really, yes. The smell of city living was overpowering back then. Yeah. Travelers used to say they could smell Paris before they could see it as they approached the city. And so Leipzig was a little bit progressive in that way.  and that they, you, you did not, you didn't dare drink the water out of the river.

Because all the affluence from these storm gutters were pumping into the river and the people downstream were having polluted water just as probably was being pumped into the, the same coming from upstream from Leipzig. It was possible for Anna Magdalena to go out or one of her daughters or the housemaid they had to go to the fountain, bring back buckets of water, carry them upstairs to the kitchen, which was on the second floor and boil it.

That's why a lot of people drank beer. They drank beer all the time, a weak form of beer because the brewing process killed the microbes in the water. 

Ron Klemm (17:05)
Sure. 

David Gordon (17:06)
And everybody drank beer of every age. There were kegs of beer in the basement of the boys school so that the boys could have their ration of beer every day.

You didn't drink the water. So it was a busy, it was a busy town. There were a lot of coffee houses and bars. Bach for 15 years was a, ran the, sort of the Palm Court Orchestra in Zimmerman's Coffee House. Every Friday night they had concerts there. A lot of his secular works and concertos were premiered there.

He was in charge of all the civic music for funerals and court occasions, and when the elector of Saxony, who was the closest thing to a king came to visit, there was all sorts of celebrations, and Bach was in charge of all of that. He was a music contractor, He was a school teacher who didn't like to teach school.

He was the choir director. He hired other people to teach Latin. He was supposed to teach Latin to the kids and he hired other people. The city council didn't care for that so much. City council didn't think too much of him. No. I think he gave, he was a, as great people are, he, he was demanding and he had high standards and he didn't want to be bothered with teaching Latin and theology to the students.

He wanted time to compose. He hired assistants to do the classroom teaching. He directed the boys and trained them in their singing and managed a music in four churches, two of which he had to be present for personally. 

Ron Klemm (18:37)
Right. 

David Gordon (18:38)
And it was a, it was a job to which. Duties had accrued over the years without any thought for whether or not one person could do it, 

Ron Klemm (18:47)
Right.

David Gordon (18:48)
And he was a very very busy man there and it was a very busy city and he was a big shot Because he was one of the leading musicians of the town 

Ron Klemm (18:56)
Now you talked about how the city didn't like him for this or that or whatever reason And then we're talking about all his church work And, and somebody's listening to this and going, well, wait a minute, what's the, what's the town got to do with the work in the church? But in those days, there was no separation of church and state, was there? 

David Gordon (19:16)
No, no. no, the city council paid him to manage the music in the churches. There was no separation between the two.The churches were part of the city. They were part of the civic life. Of the city. The churches, the St. David Gordon Nicholas and St. Thomas Church, which were, which were his principal churches, each seated more than a thousand people. They were, they are, were and are big churches. They're not little tiny chapels. And he was hired, he was probably one of the greatest keyboard artists of his time, but he had no organ duties.

in the churches. He was the director of music, which means he led the music, but was not the organist in those churches. And he he produced, he had to produce music every week for choir and orchestra. in one of the two main churches, and then of choir music in the other churches. And then there were two lesser churches and those operated with his, under his authority, but without his direct supervision.

He was usually just a few singers to lead the hymns. But there was no separation between church and state as we understand it. He had a series of jobs in his life. Working either for the city council, which meant he was working in churches, or working for royalty. He worked for the Dukes of Weimar, he worked for,  the Prince of Köthen, and the other jobs were all church jobs, and he was paid by the city council.

In a combination in Leipzig, he was paid a combination of cash and bushels of grain and firewood and beer. 

Ron Klemm (21:06)
And housing. 

David Gordon (21:07)
And housing. And housing. Yes, exactly. So the church job was a civic job. He was, his official title was director of music of the city of Leipzig. 

Ron Klemm (21:20)
I want to talk more about that. We have to take another quick break. I'm going to head out a minute and go over to Zimmermann's for a brew. Do you want anything? I'll get you some. Oh, okay. 

David Gordon (21:31)
Yes, please. 

Ron Klemm (21:32)
Okay. Well, in the meantime, don't drink the water. That's that's David Gordon. I'm Ron Klem. This is Bach Talk.

Ron Klemm (21:56)
You start talking about these kinds of things and you know, immediately you make comparisons, fair or unfair.  I had cataract surgery. For example, a couple of years ago, and I was just amazed at how, what they're able to do just miraculous techniques and, and so on. And I was, I was fine in just a couple of days, Bach had cataract surgery.And I don't know, I mean, he was, they blinded him or killed him or what? You tell me. 

David Gordon (22:29)
Yes.  there was this semi-quack English doctor,  who traveled Europe, never staying in one place too long because he had to leave town before they chased him out. And his name was Taylor and he came to Leipzig in the spring of 1750.

David Gordon (22:58)
When Bach was 65 years old and gave his big spiel before the town council about how great he was and all the accomplishments, which mostly were false. 

Ron Klemm (23:09)
Sure. 

David Gordon (23:10)
And Bach had his Bach was suffering from cataracts and was losing his eyesight. He may already have had a minor stroke, but his health was really bad.

Ron Klemm (23:22)
Mmhmm. 

David Gordon (23:23)
And the Chevalier Taylor, as he billed himself, performed the operations in his coach, in the street. And he had an assistant, and the main job qualification for being the assistant of an eye doctor in those days, or a dentist, was upper body strength so that you could hold the patient still while this procedure went on.

I, I touch on the operation a little bit in, in the, in the book, and it was something horrible. It was something that we, it's something that's gruesome, that it's hard to, it's hard to take it in. And Bach was essentially blinded. There was some initial clarity and then the vision faded. There was a follow-up operation that was supposed to take away scar tissue, which probably made things worse.

And his health declined until he was, he was blind. And on the 28th of July of 1750, he passed away. Lying in his bed in a darkened room and where he had been dictating changes in a four-part hymn to his son-in-law. As a footnote, a tragically poetic footnote, just a few years later, the same quack doctor performed the same operation on George Friedrich Handel and blinded him too.

Ron Klemm (24:53)
Unbelievable, isn't it? 

David Gordon (24:55)
Yeah, yeah. 

Ron Klemm (24:56)
The truth is crazier than fiction. 

David Gordon (25:00)
It really is. And I, as a researcher, I love that. I love, I love being surprised. Even if it means that I Have to think differently about something that I thought I already knew. 

Ron Klemm (25:15)
We, there's so much to talk about and I, we want to have you back and talk some more about it, but let me just spin out of what you just said with all the research that you've done. What is it? Research rapture? Is that what, is that? 

David Gordon (25:29)
Yes. Research rapture. 

Ron Klemm (25:30)
What is the most surprising thing that you learned? What is the thing that shocked you the most in going through all of this? 

David Gordon (25:43)
I believe the most shocking area in general, I mean the whole, the history of lighting was surprising to me.

Ron Klemm (25:51)
Yeah. 

David Gordon (25:53)
But it didn't gross me out. But what passed for personal hygiene and cleanliness in the early 1700s in Europe is almost beyond belief. 

Ron Klemm (26:09)
Yeah. Defies logic, doesn't it? 

David Gordon (26:11)
Yeah. For, because the Romans early on had it pretty much figured out there was a history of cleanliness there. There were the baths. There was various types of running water.

And when the Romans had their footprint in Germanic Europe, there were communal baths and there was cleanliness was a thing. After The Black Death, after the plague, because people had no idea where the disease came from and it was thought that the plague was transmitted through this miasma, that was this ineffable substance in the air, that would enter your body through the pores, In your skin.

Therefore, keep your skin pores clogged and you'll stay healthy. And Europe stopped bathing. 

Ron Klemm (27:03)
Oh man. 

David Gordon (27:04)
Yeah. Oh man. And, the one thing we don't get with the fabulous mini-series and movies that depict life in the 18th century is we don't get the smell. 

Ron Klemm (27:18)
No, 

David Gordon (27:18)
We don't get how bad everything smelled, and we don't get how, how this affected everything, including people's health.

And I think that to me was the most surprising thing was, and I never thought as a professional musician and a specialist in the music of Johann Sebastian Bach, that I'd be, Writing a book about Bach and finding the most fabulous and most interesting research sources to be books like The Dirt on Clean, A History of Cleanliness.

Or my favorite was called,  Privy's and WC's: Crapping at the Opera in Handel's London. And it was, it was, it started out as a doctoral thesis and became a published book. And it's basically a book about how the big opera houses dealt with restrooms or the lack thereof. And for us as 20th-century people with hot and cold running water.

We have a beautiful tiled shower, and it's, and I take it so for granted until I read about what people went through then, bathing every, maybe every few months, if that checking for fleas all the time, and I think that to me, I, I, frankly, I could have gone farther into it in the book. It would have monopolized the book because it is the most dramatic part of the story is how far we have come in just a couple of hundred years into something totally and completely different.

Ron Klemm (29:08)
Well, on behalf of everyone who's read the book, I thank you for sparing us that. That pain. 

David Gordon (29:15)
Yeah. 

Ron Klemm (29:15)
Ignorance was not bliss in that, in that case, 

David Gordon (29:19)
No. 

Ron Klemm (29:20)
Knowing, knowing what you know, let me end with this. Knowing what you know and living in a, in a 21st century world, what is today still the greatest misconception about Bach? What is it that we just still don't quite get? 

David Gordon (29:39)
I think there might be a tendency to see Bach as a dower, stern, solemn person.

And I think he was very serious about his art, there's no doubt about that. He was very serious about his religious beliefs. He was a devout Lutheran. But he also was a fun-loving person. And he loved to make jokes. He loved to write music that was, it's not so slap your knee funny to us today, but it was pretty funny back then.

I will also point out that he was a lusty man who had 20 children. And All of this paints up, paints for me, a picture of someone who really loved life, who really lived life to the fullest, ran a busy household with lots of people, was constantly innovating and writing music in new ways. And so they're part of the myth of Bach as he was an old conservative.

No, he was actually very forward-thinking. And he wanted to be upwardly mobile. He, he, he wanted to be a success, but at the same time as his oldest son said, my father's love of his family was so great that he couldn't neglect them and go on to be a, the kind of success that he might've been. 

Ron Klemm (31:22)
Wow. 

David Gordon (31:22)
I think, I think I also realized that. Anna Magdalena was his second wife, and when they met, she had a career as a professional singer. And in marrying him, she gave up that career. She had no children of her own. It was her first marriage. He already had four children. He was a difficult man with four kids to bring up. She must have loved him.

And there must have been something there to love. So I think that my impression of Bach from this long distance Is that he was a, a genius of very high standards and very hard to live with. She loved him. He would never have had the career he had without her. He loved life. He loved to laugh. He wrote the poem about putting tobacco in his pipe and puffing it.

He, he was a, he was a person of vitality and not some, you Stern, Dower schoolmaster, and that's what I hope to continue to preach in my own work is that Bach was a person of great personality. And so is his music. 

Ron Klemm (32:46)
I am always thrilled to talk to you because you always give such great insights and put things in perspective.

Ron Klemm
And we appreciate you so much. So thank you for spending time with us and talking about some of these things. And I hope you'll come back because I've got about 17 cards there that we didn't get to and talk about some more things. 

David Gordon (33:06)
I'm, I'm, I'd be glad to come back anytime. It's I treasure my relationship with the Bach Society of Saint Louis. In n 1972, after coming back from studying in Canada, I made my American concert debut as tenor soloist with the Bach Society of Saint Louis at Powell Symphony Hall. And so to come this full circle from that green beginner more than 50 years ago now to talking with you here, I just love it. I love my association with the Bach Society and I'm really happy to talk with you. any old time, Ron.

Ron Klemm (34:45)
“So schnell ein rauchend Wasser”— as swiftly as roaring water rushes by. So, hurry by the days of our life. Can you relate? The tenor aria from Bach's Cantata 26, David Gordon, in a private recording he made with a student and faculty chamber ensemble from Princeton University.

Remember now, you can order your own copy of The Little Bach Book by David Gordon by simply going to our website, bachsociety. org, click on About, and you'll find the link. For slightly more than a cup of coffee at Zimmerman's, you can enjoy The Little Bach Book. For more information about David Gordon, his past recordings, his current endeavors, visit his website, spiritsound. com. One word, spiritsound. com. In addition to David's music, we also heard from pianist Sandra Geary and the Bach Society Orchestra conducted by music director A Dennis Sparger. Our associate producer is Scott MacDonald. Marketing and technical assistance provided by Andie Murphy and Charissa Marciniak of The Right Relations.

Subscribe to Bach Talk wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more at bachsociety. org. Bach Talk is a registered trademark of the Bach Society of St. Louis. I'm Ron Klemm 

About Episode 7

Don’t miss this insightful conversation with Dr. Stephen Morscheck, a seasoned bass-baritone singer and professor of vocal studies at the University of North Texas. He’s returning to St. Louis to once again sing the role of Jesus in Bach’s St. John Passion. What goes into preparing for such a unique role? He shares insights into the intricate process of embodying characters like Jesus in Bach's compositions, emphasizing the importance of understanding the text, theology and musical nuances. He answers this and more during his conversation with host Ron Klemm.

Episode Transcript

(00:00) Ron Klemm
This is Bach Talk.

A great vocal soloist needs to master many skills. A strong technique is essential, of course. An understanding of the style in which one is singing is just as important. So is charisma and stage presence.

The Bach Society of Saint Louis, for example, finds soloists who meet all of these requirements, but there's more. Most soloists will tell you that they must to some degree Become the very character they are portraying To get inside the skin and mind of the person in order to truly convey them and communicate them properly. It all makes perfect sense, of course, but what about when that character is the son of God?

What happens when one is called upon to sing the words that Jesus himself spoke in the Bible? Words that provide the very foundation of faith for so many. How does one get into the mind of the Savior?

It seems like an impossible task, yet that is exactly what Johann Sebastian Bach demands of a skilled bass soloist in his settings of the gospel passions. Today, we'll put that question and a whole lot more to a man who's been there many times. Stay right where you are for an enlightening, deep, thoughtful, yet fun filled conversation with Dr. Stephen Morscheck.

Ron Klemm (02:51)
Hello, I'm Ron Klemm. Welcome to Bach Talk. Professor of Vocal Studies at the University of North Texas, Stephen Morscheck has seen and experienced more than most. Name a prominent operatic bass role by Mozart, Verdi, or Rossini. Chances are Steve has sung it. Think of the bass solos in sacred choral masterpieces by Handel, Beethoven, and Brahms.

Yep, in the past year he's reprised the main oratorial roles in Haydn's creation and Mendelssohn's Elijah. Experience is the greatest teacher, they say. And Morscheck's concert reviews demonstrate he has learned his lessons well. But perhaps his greatest claim to fame lies in his affinity for Bach and for playing the difficult role of Jesus in the Leipzig Master's setting of the Passion Story, as told in the Biblical Gospels of Matthew and John.

Dr. Morscheck has sung these roles here in Saint Louis several times. Each occasion has brought a rich, fulfilling understanding of the mind and heart of Bach. We chatted with Steve in the Versailles room at the Hilton Saint Louis Frontenac Hotel. With the help of editor Scott MacDonald, we want to share that conversation.

Let's start at the beginning with the beginning. Your early influences, let's start there. 

Stephen Morscheck (04:20)
Sure. I was born in 1959 in Marshfield, Wisconsin. The last of four children to, uh, a pastor. And my mother, his wife, was the church organist and pianist and so forth, so going to church was a huge part of our life.

Stephen Morscheck (04:38)
Music was also an important part of our life because of the fact that my mother played the piano and the organ. She enlisted all four children to be involved in some way. We all studied some instrument at some point during our schooling. I picked up the trombone. That had been left over from my second brother and started making noise with it.

Stephen Morscheck (05:02)
And she said, well, you're going to have to take some lessons. And I eventually ended up playing the trombone all the way through high school. My voice changed a little bit earlier than most of my peers and, uh, my mother began enlisting me to sing little things at church and, uh, encouraged me to also audition for the high school choir.

I could hold my own in terms of singing and so forth and, uh, got all the way my first try into the top choir in my high school. I was the only sophomore and I even got a solo in my sophomore year and that led to getting some of the leading roles in the next two years in the musicals that we did. And so I decided to pursue performing, which I didn't really understand what it was at the time, but I decided to attend college and study singing.

Ron Klemm (05:59)
You decided that, or someone decided for you? 

Stephen Morscheck (06:02)
I did, I don't, I would not say that my, my mother forced me by any means, or encouraged me. By that point, they, they let me decide. And really, that was the strongest interest that I had. And at that point in my life I did have a, I was a, not necessarily a proactive person.

I was reactive. And so that seemed like the, the least path of resistance. I was getting a lot of positive responses from people hearing me sing and so forth. And I did, at that point, believe that maybe the, I had been given some sort of gift in this way and so forth and that it should be something that I should pursue I did have a strong belief in God at that point and recognition that He was sovereign over these things in our lives, I believed, and so that perhaps this was something that he had for me to do.

So I went away to college and studied voice for four years, and when I finished college, I wasn't so sure anymore. 

Ron Klemm (07:05)
And where was that? 

Stephen Morscheck (07:07) 

Wheaton College, outside of Chicago. 

Ron Klemm (07:09)
A lot of influences along those lines, I would think. 

Stephen Morscheck (07:13)
Yes, right. It was a, it's a Christian liberal arts college. Yes, and I received excellent training there. But I also came to a point of, of, uh, having to ask some serious questions about life in general. And I did discover at that point in my life that the way I viewed the world and the way I lived were largely, I think, I would say, second hand, that I had picked up from my parents in terms of being a preacher's kid and what we did in our lives every week and so forth So I took a year I realized during my senior year in college that going on to grad school just because everybody else was doing it was not the thing to do so I took a year off and worked as a janitor the night shift from 11 at night till 7:30 in the morning During that year. I I was searching And I decided, I continued to go to church and so forth, but I believe that God brought into my life certain people, so that I could sort these things out myself. And, uh, make a decision for myself, what I believed about the world, what I believed about the universe, what I believed about our purpose here on life.

And so, I did not walk away from the faith. I embraced it fully as my own. 

Ron Klemm (08:33)
On your own? 

Stephen Morscheck (08:34) And that's how I live my life, no matter if I were a singer, or if I were to be anything else in life. 

Ron Klemm (08:42)
It's very clear to me that you must have immediately had an affinity for Bach and for the works of a person who expressed the deepest parts of his heart and soul through his music. 

Stephen Morscheck (08:59)
That's, that's actually a very profound statement that you have made, because I'll tell you a story. My voice teacher at Wheaton College assigned to me for my senior recital, one of Bach's great solo cantatas for the bass voice. It's cantata 82, Ich habe genug. 

Ron Klemm (09:20)
It's, it's enough. 

Stephen Morscheck (09:21)
Yeah, that's right. That's right. And I learned the whole thing, memorized. All three arias, two recitatives. We did, I did it with piano. So I sang it at modern pitch. I didn't even know what Baroque pitch was back then. 

Ron Klemm (09:34)
Well, no, I still don't, but that's another story.

Stephen Morscheck (09:37) 
And I loved the piece on all the different levels. And apparently, my teacher thought that it really fit me like a glove. Because he said to my mother My mother and father came to my senior recital and he said to my mother, he said something to this effect, that he's heard many people sing Bach, but your son sings Bach, he said. Something to that effect. And he never actually said that to me, that I recall. Something my mother relayed it to me. later on. 

Ron Klemm (10:09)
Well, she didn't want it to go to your head. 

Stephen Morscheck (10:11)
Yeah, probably. But I've always loved it so much. His music has always been, um, I have found it so enjoyable to sing. It's like medicine on my voice in some ways.

But it's also so challenging. It's like mathematics in some ways. And as I've grown older and studied it more in depth and learned more about his life and how he essentially consecrated himself to and dedicated himself to composing music, for the church, for worship. He certainly composed music that is not that way.

Other things that would be considered to be secular. But he, he pretty much focused himself only on composing music for the church. Um, that was my introduction to Bach. 

Ron Klemm  (10:58)
Do you see a parallel between perhaps the greatest church musician of all and the work that you're doing now? 

Stephen Morscheck (11:09)
So as, as a preacher's kid.

Ron Klemm (11:12)
Yeah. 

Stephen Morscheck (11:13)
There was a pretty strong pull to consider being a preacher for my life's work. 

Ron Klemm (11:19)
As opposed to being a church musician? 

Stephen Morscheck (11:22)
Right. 

Ron Klemm (11:23)
Interesting. 

Stephen Morscheck (11:23)
Yeah. And, um, I do want to proclaim, I do want to, to share this what I believe with others, but to be able to do it with also this, singing, there was a germ that began when I was in high school and that I have trained. Ever since I started I have not stopped training I have not stopped learning how to use this instrument as a delivery system for whatever I'm singing whether it's something that is foundational to my faith or whether it's something completely divorced from it, something that's entirely different, but maybe an opera role of a character who is not anything near the part that I'm singing now in this particular piece. 

Ron Klemm (12:06)
And you've done many of those.

Stephen Morscheck (12:08)
Yeah. 

Ron Klemm (12:09) 
How do you approach them? Do you approach them differently? If one is something very meaningful to you and the other is eh, whatever. Do you approach it with the same gusto, with the same earnest, with the same approach?

Stephen Morscheck (12:21)
I endeavor to, yes. I endeavor to. I endeavor to bring everything that I can understand about why this character is the way they are.

What is, what is in their world view? What are, what are their desires? And endeavor to bring that out as I sing, whether I'm on stage or perhaps it's another oratorio for instance, to bring that to its fullest degree. I'll use another example, another oratorio, I've sung it many times, but it's the role of Raphael in Haydn's creation.

So Haydn's creation, in addition to orchestra and chorus, there are three soloists, depending upon how it's cast, there could be another two soloists that come at the end when you have Adam and Eve. But I'm going to be singing both Adam and Raphael. So Raphael is an angel, and he stands up and talks about in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

And then later on, he says, and God made animals. He makes animals, the tiger and the lion and the Haydn is very descriptive. Well, I approach it as if I've never been an angel. Right? But what would it be like to be an angel witnessing this happening out of nothing? There would be great joy. There would be great wonder.

There would be awe. I've never seen a lion before, right? And that's what I try to bring to it as I sing it. It's also very enjoyable to sing the core of what may be going on in the text.

 Ron Klemm  (13:53)
Bass-baritone Stephen Morscheck singing a short recitative from Bach's Christmas Oratorio in a performance by the Bach Society as part of the 2017 Saint Louis Bach Festival. More of our conversation straight ahead. You're listening to Bach Talk.

Ron Klemm  (14:47)
Bach in his Passions uses soloists to convey the, the heart of the matter that's going on, but he also uses characters one, and I'll talk just about the two main ones. One is the evangelist who basically tells the gospel story. The other is the character role of our Lord and Savior. You have sung that with the Bach Society on several occasions.

How does one prepare to be Jesus?

Stephen Morscheck (15:21)
Ultimately you have to go to the text. It wouldn't hurt, rather than just to study the actual passage in the case of the St. Matthew Passion, for instance, Matthew 26 and 27, where that, all that text comes from, but also the greater theology behind what the New Testament, for instance, argues about who Jesus is, that he's fully God and fully man, and that has to be considered when you sing this part.

Stephen Morscheck (15:51)
How did, how can that possibly be shown? Can we even understand that? Right. Then of course, there's the understanding of the music itself. And Bach does this interesting thing. He wasn't the first to do it. But he gives to Jesus a very unique accompaniment. And that is what we would call restitiva accompagnato only with the strings.

Stephen Morscheck (16:17)
And it creates this Aura around everything he says as the piece progresses Again, it's restative. He's speaking. He's just simply speaking his text, but it's not as free as the what the evangelist does it has a it's slightly more metered It's conducted by the conductor and it's consistent all the way through the St. Matthew Passion except the very last thing Jesus says when he's on the cross.

Stephen Morscheck (16:52)
So we have to figure out, well, what does that mean? Why does he do that? I teach a course at the University of North Texas where I'm on faculty there. Uh, so we talk about this piece as, as part of all these, these things. And the text that I use is written by a fellow named Michael Steinberg, and he refers to Bach as an inveterate musical illustrator.

Stephen Morscheck (17:13)
He illustrates what's happening in the text musically. And you can see it time and time again in this piece of St. Matthew. You have to look at the text, obviously. You have to try to gain an understanding of who Jesus is and who Bach thinks Jesus is. Uh, when Bach is composing for Jesus, and the piece is going to be performed, not as a concert piece, not in some orchestra hall, it's going to be performed as part of a church worship experience.

Ron Klemm (17:43)
On Good Friday. 

Stephen Morscheck (17:44)
On Good Friday. What is Bach thinking about it? You have to take all those things into consideration. Getting back to the string accompaniment, some people refer to it as the halo. It does create this sort of aura about Jesus. And if we're not careful, it makes Jesus sound like he's only of heavenly value, like that he has no earthly, he's not, he doesn't have his feet on the ground.

Stephen Morscheck (18:06)
It can very easily, it can become so slow and sustained that you can't relate to this person. The first time I did this work, I did it with Conductor John Nelson, and he challenged me to find the humanity in how I delivered my text. There are moments where Jesus gets very excited about and, and enthusiastic about the Word of God, but then there are times when he's simply speaking to the disciples.

He encouraged me to think of that as being more free. Not quite so slow and sustained and so we played a lot with that and I endeavor to keep that as I do The part now as I sing it that there are places where it moves ahead Where it has a little bit more sense of just every day but you sense the humanity and then there are moments where when Jesus starts talking about certain scripture being fulfilled by what's happening or when he says of this same lady what she has done for me is going to be told Wherever this gospel is preached, and every time the St. Matthew Passion is performed, I'll add that as well, right? That story is told over and over. 

Ron Klemm (19:17)

Of course, over and over. Exactly right. 

Ron Klemm (19:27)
When you are singing about Matters of life and death. The most profound (20:00) texts that you can imagine and deliver them. And your instrument is in your body. The same place where all your emotions and all your, yeah, your soul lives, right? Surely there must be a technique to do that because I get a lump in my throat every time I try to sing something. How do you do that? 

Stephen Morscheck (18:06)
You're nailing it right on the head. That is exactly one of the great mysteries about what we learn to do in this particular style of singing. Which I'll call, I'll call bel canto. Beautiful singing. No microphones. So we're responsible for our own projection. And we have to do, what I believe, and I call, as I teach it, we have to have an open throat.

And what do emotions tend to do to our throats? They tend to close our throats. Literally, we have an expression for it. We get Choked up and the throat, the throat goes into more of a swallowing kind of position where it gets squeezed like that. And when we get up to sing, we have to have our throat open.

So we have to find a way. To have hot hearts, passionate hearts, and cool minds as, as we do this. And that takes hours and hours, years of practice. But that is constantly the challenge that we have.

Ron Klemm (21:57)
The voice of bass-baritone, Stephen Morsheck, singing the words of Jesus in Bach's St. Matthew Passion from a concert by the Bach Society of Saint Louis in the spring of 2023. Straight ahead we'll hear from Professor Morsheck and his approach to teaching aspiring young singers. You're listening to Bach Talk.

Ron Klemm (22:25)
You're a teacher. What attributes do you look for in a young singer? Besides the musical gift and the, and the technique and the moldability that you can, you can deal with, what other things do you look for? 

Stephen Morscheck (22:40)
The biggest thing I look for is what I'll just call thirst. They are not satisfied just being told by me what to do. They have a thirst. To learn something, to explore, and they come in with, I found this piece, Dr. Morscheck, what do you think? Is this something I could do? Versus somebody who simply is content to just be told, do this, do this, do this, and that's all they'll do. Sometimes that, again, can be hard to discern immediately.

But I can think of one, one student that I currently work with, and he was talking about listening to some Beethoven quartet. And this particular phrase within this quartet and how the bassline moved or something like that. And I, and I know that I, I have no idea what Beethoven quartet he's talking about.

And I, and I played jokingly, I said, Oh yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. And then I laughed and then I laughed because. I mean, he's a tremendous example of someone who's very, very thirsty. He, he discovers new music, music that, about, from all different angles. He's not going to be able to sing it all in one lifetime, the kinds of things that he's interested in.

Ron Klemm (24:01)
What is the one thing you wish you could teach some people? 

Stephen Morscheck (24:04)
Oh, my word. Well, the list must be long. No. If you can talk, you can sing. Because, because the same two vocal folds that come together in your throat, in your larynx to vibrate, to produce tone, anything you say, grunting, speaking, okay, if you, if you have the ability to do that, then you have the ability to sing because what singing is, is sustained speech.

Ron Klemm (24:37)
Is there such a thing as being tone-deaf? 

Stephen Morscheck (24:39)
Well, I, I do not have the authority to say no, or yes, either way. I don't know for sure. But I do know that people who I've been, who have come to me and said they're tone deaf, or a student, for instance, that's come in who couldn't match pitch, eventually they were able to learn to match pitch.
It seems to be a coordination of within the brain and the laryngeal nerves. to understand that they, they can match pitch. This particular young man was a rock singer and he came to study music business and he had to have an instrument and voice became his instrument. And I, as the new teacher on the block, he was assigned to me.

And he came in the first day and I started plunking the notes on the piano for him to sing along and he couldn't do it. I was also teaching at that same time, a voice class for non-voice music majors. So your trumpet players, your flutists, your oboists, and so forth, string players, they had to take a voice class.

They took it with me. And they were going to have to be, they were music educators, they were going to be going into schools, and they might become the subject matter voice expert in their school. So I had a local teacher come in who taught junior high choir. And this choir director, Talked about the particular challenges for boys when their voices change when they go through puberty and how their voices change and they oftentimes lose the ability to match pitch and how she solved it.

And she solved it by having them come up to the upright piano, not a grand piano, but an upright conventional piano and stand with their hands on the backside of the sounding board. Really? And she would begin to play simple scales and so forth, and they would feel the vibrations and somehow they began to translate that into their throats and they began to be able to match pitch.

Ron Klemm (26:43)
That's fascinating. 

Stephen Morscheck (26:44)
Not instantaneously, but it works. Eventually. That's what I did with this young man, this rock singer. And by the time he had to do his recital, he was matching pitch and he was able to sing songs where the pitch was independent from the accompaniment. If you can speak, if you can grunt, if you can say, that is a pitch, that is a pitch already.

It's got vibration, vibration by definition is going to have a frequency, right? And all you have to do is then sustain that. That is complicated. That takes an understanding of your breath, right? And, how the throat should feel and science of it. Yeah. And that's what teaching is all about. 

Ron Klemm (27:26)
Yeah. Understanding how that all works. 

Stephen Morscheck (27:28)
That's right. 

Ron Klemm (27:29)
I'd love to, at the end of a conversation, just kind of give you a couple of quick hits. Uh, I don't have one here, but if I had a trombone here and asked you to pick it up, what would be the thing you'd toot on the trombone? What would be the, what would be the first thing you'd play?

Stephen Morscheck (27:46)
That was 40 years ago. 

Ron Klemm (27:47)
Just, just, just guess. 

Stephen Morscheck (27:49)
I do know what I would play. I'm gonna play. Tuba mirum from the Mozart Requiem. 

Ron Klemm (28:04)
My favorite. What piece do you, you cannot live without? 

Stephen Morscheck (28:09)
I've told this to many, many people, St. Matthew Passion. That's, no, that's a no-brainer for me. St. Bach's. St. Matthew Passion. That is my desert Island Peak. 

Ron Klemm (28:21)
If you had to do something else other than teach and perform, what would it be? 

Stephen Morscheck (28:26)
One of two things. I'd go back and I would, I would study history or geology. A different kind of history. Why geology? I've, I've always been fascinated by it. I had a teacher when I was a junior in high school, Mr. Welchon. And he had a huge handlebar mustache. You know, I googled him and he's still living as far as I know.
And he made that topic come alive so wonderfully. He would draw these amazing schematics, cutaways of the sides of mountains, and showing all the various rock layers. And he'd use different colored chalk to show these rock layers, and how this avalanche was caused, and so forth. He made it so interesting and he made it so enjoyable. It's always fascinated me. 

Ron Klemm (29:13)
Well, you've been a joy and, and, and, and a, and a blessing. And, and just a, a great, uh, fun time to sit here and talk with you, so thank you so very much. 

Stephen Morscheck (29:23)
You're welcome. 

Ron Klemm (29:23) 
And we look forward to seeing you again. 

Stephen Morscheck (29:25)
Thank you very much.

Ron Klemm (29:37)
We leave you today as we began: with Grosser Herr, Mighty Lord, from Bach’s Christmas Oratorio. Bass-baritone Stephen Morscheck and the Bach Society Orchestra, conducted by Music Director and Conductor A. Dennis Sparger.

All of our musical portions today were taken from concerts by the Bach Society, as captured by Grammy-award-winning recording engineer Paul Hennerich.

Guests of the Bach Society stay at the Hilton Saint Louis Frontenac Hotel featuring old-world charm at the intersection of comfort and convenience.

Subscribe to Bach Talk wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more at BachSociety.org.

Our Associate Producer is Scott MacDonald. Marketing and technical assistance provided by Andie Murphy and Charissa Marciniak of Right Relations.

Bach Talk is a trademark of the Bach Society of Saint Louis.  I’m Ron Klemm.

About Episode 6

Join us as soprano Michele Kennedy shares her musical journey, the impact of her mentors and where she finds joy in her life. She's sharing her vision for a more inclusive approach to historic musical practices while celebrating underrepresented composers and artists. The episode also touches on Michele's experiences during the pandemic, revealing the positive aspects, new skills acquired and the joy she found in daily practice.

Don't miss this enriching conversation with host Ron Klemm that captures the essence of Michele's joy in the arts.

Episode Transcript

Ron Klemm (00:00)
This is Bach Talk.

The San Francisco Chronicle praised her as an excellent and impassioned soprano, possessing a graceful tonal clarity that is a wonder to hear.

Her name is Michele Kennedy. She first appeared in St. Louis with The Bach Society in 2019. She is a versatile artist, to be sure, specializing in both early and new music. She's a delight to be around, as you're about to discover.

You're hearing that virtuosic soprano aria from Handel's quintessential oratorio, Messiah. Rejoice, greatly. It's an apropos way to describe Michele's approach to life. We talked with her when she was here for that performance with the Bach Society. 

Hello. I'm Ron Klemm. Welcome to Bach Talk. A lot has happened in Michele's life since then.

In the fall, ACES Productions released her first solo album with Agave Baroque, titled In Her Hands, a fascinating collection of music by female composers, past and present. She talked about it, pre-release, in our conversation. And just recently, it was announced that she won the coveted 2023 American Prize for Vocal Performance.

She mentioned in a recent email that she was totally surprised by the news. Me? Not so much, because Michele Kennedy has already demonstrated to St. Louis audiences the passion and grace that has impressed so many. We chatted with Michele in the Versailles room at the Hilton St. Louis Frontenac Hotel. A self-proclaimed shy person, I found her perceptive, well-balanced, profound and thoughtful about music, diversity in the arts and life in general.

We began our conversation by asking Michele to describe life as a child in a contrastingly urban, yet serene, California setting. 

Michele Kennedy (02:47)
I grew up near the big lake in central Oakland, Lake Merritt, in an area that was pretty wooded and we were very near the Redwoods. And I have fond memories as a very, very shy little girl of going up to the Redwoods with my family and going on these little hikes, even as a very tiny person.

I loved the majesty of the woods. I also loved being near the water. So we would go to the beach. We would go to the lake and playing in those natural spaces made a big imprint on me as a kid, I would say. I was very shy. I 

Ron Klemm (03:25)
Now that's hard to believe. 

Michele Kennedy (03:26)
Is it really?

Well, my grandfather, my mother's father, used to play Bach every morning on the piano. He was an organist and a minister. And he noticed, even when I was very small, that I loved listening to him play. So when I was three years old, he offered to give us an upright Yamaha. And, I started my piano lessons when I was still too little for my feet to even touch the ground.

And very, very shy, but I, I began with Suzuki at age three and I still am so thankful for that method because I think, particularly for introverted kids, it gives you this really vivid sensory, impression of the keyboard, spatially, numerically, musically and I just loved getting lost in that world.

By the time I was seven or eight, my parents had to encourage me to practice, not because I wouldn't sit at the keyboard, but because all I wanted to do was sing and not play. 

Ron Klemm (04:31)
Uh oh. 

Michele Kennedy (04:33) 
Uh oh. So, some of those beginner tunes like Red River Valley and Dona Nobis Pacem, I would start playing, which is what I was supposed to be doing.

But I just like singing them, so my parents, being wise people, thought, let's try out a choir. And I joined the San Francisco Girls Chorus. 

Ron Klemm (04:52)
Yes, not just any choir. 

Michele Kennedy (04:53)
Not just any choir. In fact, we tried a few other area choirs, which my mom would say in her diplomatic way, were not a great fit, but the Girls Chorus was and it stuck and it became my second family as a kid.

Ron Klemm (05:10)
Ensemble. You learned early on what that meant and what a group of people with the same goals doing the same thing. Powerful stuff, isn't it? 

Michele Kennedy (05:19)
Very powerful. 

Ron Klemm (05:20)
What is it about choirs that give us this incredible bond? 

Michele Kennedy (05:25)
It's a wonderful question. I think it's a lot of things. I think one aspect of it is.

You learn how to calibrate your voice with others, which is to say you bring what you have to say in your own way, but it's in community. So there's a give and take. There's an innate power of listening. I think that you learn on a lot of different levels of compromise, of discipline. The Girls Chorus has never been short on discipline.

We rehearsed, once I reached the, kind of, pre-professional level, which was at age 11 for me, at least three afternoons a week. So four to six, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday were always Girls Chorus rehearsals. And then in concert weeks, there was more. So I think I just started to get it in my muscles that that's when we worked and that we worked to listen to one another, that we worked to achieve a high bar musically and that we sang in all these languages and for me as such a shy child, my parents would tell you that in my first few concerts, I was too shy to even look up at the conductor. 

Ron Klemm (06:42)
Uh, Michele, that's not a good thing. Promise me that you'll look up to Dennis. 

Michele Kennedy (06:51)
I promise. I've learned, I've learned. I think actually this was a great thing about the Girls Chorus because we rehearsed so often. I started to be at home with my craft and to trust that I had something important to offer. And it drew me a little bit over time out of my introversion, such that I could learn to tell a story on the stage.

Ron Klemm (07:18) 
You, you said your dad was a minister or your grandfather? Grandfather. Did you, did you have the church, music experience singing in church or not so much? 

Michele Kennedy (07:29)
Only a little bit. Ah, interesting. Actually, my dad came up in the Baptist tradition in San Diego. My mom came up in the Presbyterian church and they felt fairly strongly that they wanted their two daughters, myself and my sister, Erin, to find our own way when it came to faith, which is to say, to approach the church when we wanted to. 

So I went, I went several times to different churches. I remember my family went a couple of times to Lakeshore Avenue Baptist Church near Lake Merritt in Oakland and it was this wonderfully diverse Baptist congregation, very of and for and about the community.

And I loved that worship. I loved singing there. I loved hearing what everybody had to say. But I didn't attend church regularly until I was in college. 

Ron Klemm  (08:21)
Which was in?

Michele Kennedy(08:23)
New Haven, Connecticut. 

Ron Klemm (8:24)
At?

Michele Kennedy (08:25)
I went to Yale University. 

Ron Klemm (08:27)
Yes, you did. 

Michele Kennedy (08:27)
And I joined the Choir of Christ Church in New Haven under the direction of one Robert Lehman.

Ron Klemm (08:34)
I've heard of him. 

Michele Kennedy (08:36) 
Who from day one was so many different things in my life. He was a very powerful mentor musically. He was a friend to me and my family. And he remains a pillar in my life of mentorship and goodness and support and, I just, I love his family. We would all have these, dinners after Evensong on Sunday, having had a very full day of work.

We'd go have some homemade deliciousness. Alison Lehman is a fierce cook, a fierce everything. Terrific lady. And, I hold them very dear and the Christchurch choir experience really asked a lot of us musically. I think that the caliber of musicianship that Rob expected was extremely high. So in terms of the rigor of sight reading, especially harmonic nuance, rhythmic nuance and versatility, I learned so much in that job.

Ron Klemm (09:41)
It's a long way from Oakland, California to New Haven, Connecticut and Yale University. How did that come about? 

Michele Kennedy (09:51)
That's a good question. We looked at universities both on the West Coast and the East. My parents were very supportive, although I know, especially for my mom, 3, 000 miles felt like a long ways.

Ron Klemm (10:03) 
You think? 

Michele Kennedy (10:04)
A long ways. But my grandfather, my mom's dad got his doctorate in Chinese and Divinity at Yale and it was beloved in the family. I also had two good friends from the Girls Chorus who were fellow alums and when my mom and I came to tour, they took me around and I just had this feeling about the place like, It's like, I love it here.

I love it here. Not just the Gothic architecture, but the ethos, the openness, the beauty of the place. 

Ron Klemm (10:36)
Makes, makes a lot of sense. It sounds to me that your parents and family were not pushing you into any particular area, a little cubby hole or something like that. That you were able to find yourself. Is that fair? 

Michele Kennedy (10:52)
Mm. It is fair. Okay. It's, it's intuitive of you to say that. I think that openness was very important to both my parents, each in their own way, but they wanted their daughters to feel free. and empowered in our choice-making. I think I did feel spurred on to practice. My mother was very good at that, but definitely, there was a lot of freedom of choice.

Ron Klemm (11:23)
So the moral of the story is encourage, support, but don't, don't be pushy. 

Michele Kennedy (11:29)
But don't be pushy. I will say to your question, one other thing, which is that being that far away from home, I did miss it. I did miss it. I went back often. But the one thing I found in college was that, you know, here I am far from my family, far from my upbringing.

The one constant is. Me, you know, the constant is the woman I'm becoming and it, I think it invited more clarity. It asked more clarity of me in terms of what I wanted and where I was going. 

Ron Klemm (12:02)
Who discovered your talent or put it this way, when did you come to the realization? Oh wow, I could actually do this for a living.

Michele Kennedy (12:13)
No, it's a wonderful question. And I would say, gradually, I think that for me, the mentors in my life have been huge, especially since I was such a shy child and remain, in a lot of ways, a very introverted person. I think, from, my Girls Chorus days. My first voice teacher, Sarah Gans, still a very beloved friend of mine in San Francisco.

She lived right near the Twin Peaks and so we would drive seemingly straight uphill to get to her house for my lessons. And she was and remains a big cheerleader and friend. of mine. I think also that all of my directors in the Girls Chorus, especially Dr. Sharon Paul, who I sang under for all of middle school and high school Susan McMain, who succeeded her and now Valerie Santagat, the current director of the Girls Chorus, they're all beloved friends and mentors of mine who I look up to tremendously.

And I think in college and beyond that my voice teachers have been huge, huge for my sense of self, the scope of my dreams, the kind of tangible steps in daily practice that we need to pursue this as a career, but that being said, Ron. It's a leap of faith every day, honestly. 

Ron Klemm (13:38)
Nerves are a good thing, aren't they? They're, they're motivators. 

Michele Kennedy (13:41)
Yes.

Ron Klemm (13:42)
That's soprano Michele Kennedy. I'm Ron Klemm and this is Bach Talk.

Ron Klemm (13:50)
It's not uncommon for an organization to publish or put on their website, a vision statement. It's not every day that an individual singer like yourself would have a vision statement and publish it. I want to go through it step by step. And, give you a chance to just take a deep dive into these things. You cool with that? 

Michele Kennedy (14:14)
Absolutely. 

Ron Klemm (14:14)
Okay. To fuel artistic dialogue through a contemporary lens on historic practice. What does that mean? 

Michele Kennedy (14:25)
It means several things. One, I'm a Baroque specialist. I adore, as you know, the works of Handel and Bach in particular. And I think in revisiting those masterworks. And those are their contemporaries, both very beloved and visible and lesser known.

That a contemporary lens to me means, how does this music live today? How does it resonate with us today? And also, how can it interface with more contemporary works on the stage? Whether that means juxtaposing period works with works of the 20th and 21st century, whether that means diversifying our canon as we're called to so intensely today and every day, how do we facilitate a dialogue between the established masterpieces of the stage and those that deserve equal recognition but haven't yet received it.

What does that conversation look like? So for me when I say to fuel a contemporary lens on historic practice, I mean, well let's look at this historic repertoire with a modern lens and ask ourselves, who's been included at the table? Who hasn't been included at the table? How can we forge a bridge between the two? 

Ron Klemm (15:52) 
Who hasn't been included at the table? 

Michele Kennedy (15:56)
Well, in broad strokes, female composers, composers of color. I think those who have been marginalized by less fortunate means. 

Ron Klemm (16:08)
Through no fault of their own. 

Michele Kennedy (16:11)
Through no fault of their own, yeah. So I think that for me there's a big calling, a growing calling in my career to be a leader when it comes to those conversations because they're not easy.

They're not easy. We have to develop the vocabulary, we have to find the fluency and there's no way but through that conversation. So that's what I really mean is, I want to continue to bring these vaunted Baroque masterworks to the stage. I adore them with my entire soul. And What does it look like to really diversify the canon? How, how do we forge meaningful tissue between those, those two paths and include more people on the stage? 

Ron Klemm (16:56)
And in a practical way, how are you doing that? Tell me a little bit about some of the, some of the gig that have incorporated that type of approach. 

Michele Kennedy (17:04)
Mmm, of course. Well, I am a member of the Kaleidoscope Vocal Ensemble, which is now I believe in its fourth season, pandemic seasons included.

Oh my goodness. So Kaleidoscope is comprised of Early music and I would say also contemporary music specialists, primarily artists of color, many of whom are known and beloved here at the Bach Society of St. Louis. And our mission is twofold. One, to bring artistic excellence to the stage. Two, to celebrate the voices of artists of color on the stage and in the field more broadly.

So that means librettists, composers, composers. Artists, voices of all kinds. How do we open the door more widely than it may have felt available to us?

Ron Klemm (18:01)
Number two, your vision statement to work with living composers and writers. So who, what, obviously that, that really dovetails into what you just talked about.

Michele Kennedy (18:14)
I love championing the works of female composers and writers in particular. I would say that the main vehicle for that right now is. Lorelai Ensemble, which I debuted with, which I was to have debuted with in 2020. We all know what happened. I had a digital debut with Lorelai Ensemble. And I just love the clarity and boldness of Beth Willer's vision for that group.

So we are currently working with Julia Wolfe on a tour of her world premiere and sort of regional premiere, as it is, in collaboration with several symphony orchestras. It's a co-commission from Nashville Symphony, San Francisco, Boston, Chicago and the National Symphony in D.C. 

Ron Klemm (19:04)
And the piece is called?

Michele Kennedy (19:06)
Her Story. It's a, I want to say a celebration of women's rights, but it's something deeper than a celebration. It's like a tour de force of the story of civil rights. and the fight for women's equal rights in America. It centers the voices of Abigail Adams and Sojourner Truth. Speaking of Bridges, historic and contemporary and it also interweaves derogatory terms that have been used to denigrate outspoken women of all kinds and stripes for generations.

And it, I would say, through Julia Wolfe's minimalist language, it kind of decimates their power. And puts them back together again and the whole piece feels to me like a reclamation of taking up space in a powerful way as a strong group of women. 

Ron Klemm (20:08)
Fascinating. That is terrific. 

Michele Kennedy (20:11)
Thank you. 

Ron Klemm (20:11)
I can't wait to hear it.

Ron Klemm (20:13)
To bring more diverse voices and perspectives to the stage, again you kind of talked a little bit about that. What does diversity look like in the performing arts? Maybe that's a bigger, broader question. 

Michele Kennedy (20:27)
It is a broader question. Well, I think it can look a lot of different ways. I'll give a couple of examples in hopes that that vivifies the conversation, you know, for us and for the listeners.

I think one way is through curating thoughtful programs that have connective human stuff. As their medium. So, for example, I've worked on this program called Cultural Crossroads with a Bay Area-based group called The Gold Coast Chamber Players, also in collaboration with the Alexander String Quartet.

And it is a dialogue about American music through the music of Dvorak, music of Harry Burleyand the music of R. Carlos Nakai. And the central, the foundation of the program is the friendship between Dvorak and Burleigh, which was very real and decades-long and both emotional and musical. So it's about the influence of Czech music on Dvorak, on various Black musical traditions that he interfaced with when he came to America Native American music and also the program centers not just Harry Burley's original compositions and spiritual arrangements, but also the original works of R. Carlos Nakai, wonderful flutist and composer. And it creates a conversation between those three strands, which is to say, what does it look like when our lens on American music brings together Indigenous voices, Black voices, Czech voices, all kinds of voices, but the connective tissue is those relationships.

I think that's one way. I think another way is through the medium of art song, which is One of my favorites, recital work. So for example, I recently have done this recital, sort of like a mini tour. I did a recital with Opera Philadelphia as part of their Sounds of America program. And then I did a recital in San Francisco at St. Mary's church and they, they had some common threads, which were that they interwove different art song traditions and told the stories of. The composers. So the Opera Philadelphia program very much highlighted the work of Margaret Bonds and Florence Price. So their personal stories were at the fore there.

We also integrated some works by Tania Leon, phenomenal living composer, Nkero Okoye, New York-based composer who is on the rise and for a wonderful reason. And the San Francisco recital also interwove works of Pauline Viardot, Mendelssohn, Fauré. Bonds and price and I do think that in, in the recital medium, it's just so, it's so personal because you're just up there with one voice and a few instruments and I, I find it personally important to talk a little bit about each of the composers in the recital context just to vivify their work, who they were. How their music shows us more about their moment in history. 

Ron Klemm (23:42)
And the last thing on your vision statement is to celebrate curiosity and joy in daily practice. That sounds like something we should all do. 

Ron Klemm (23:53)
What makes you curious? What are you most curious about now?

Michele Kennedy (24:01)
I think my sense of curiosity has no bounds. I do wonder because I'm a new mother, in this work. 

Ron Klemm (24:08)
How new?

Michele Kennedy (24:10)
19 months.

Ron Klemm (24:11)
And how's that going?

Michele Kennedy (24:14
Oh my goodness, it's a wonder. 

Ron Klemm (24:16)
Is your mind wandering at this very moment? How's things going at home? It's okay to say yes. 

Michele Kennedy(24:22)
Right. Well my daughter and my husband are always present in my mind and heart.

Audra Mae is, she's a wonder, she's a delight, she is overflowing with curiosity and lightheartedness. And joy. And joy, which to me is It's kind of a revelation in the practice because I've always just been such a serious person. Anybody who's ever sat down with me would not be shocked by that. But I think that intensity and focus and discipline have always come naturally to me and been cultivated in my environments.

But I think that to reclaim our sense of joy every day is not just an act of empowerment, but an act of reclamation of what it means to be alive. What it means to do this amazing art form, to present it, to be on the stage, to share it with our audiences. It's a privilege, it's an honor and I always do well to just have a smile and remember why I love it so much.

Ron Klemm (25:31)
That's the, uh, reserved Michele Kennedy. I'm Ron Klemm and this is Bach Talk. 

Ron Klemm (26:31)
I don't know about you, but I'm, I get weary about talking about the pandemic, but a lot of things happened, not just technologically during that time. Tell me about what positives came out of that for you. 

Michele Kennedy (26:50)
I learned how to record myself at home. 

Ron Klemm (26:53)
Well, I could have taught you that. 

Michele Kennedy (26:56)
Let me tell you, Ron, it was a steep learning curve. The microphones, the backdrops, the lighting. 

Ron Klemm (27:05)
If you have any problems, just give me a call. 

Michele Kennedy (27:07)
I might take you up on that. But I will say that I really learned how to do it. And I was very clumsy at first, then I got better. That was one thing. I also, I started an indoor garden and I have more herbs growing at home than I ever had before.

I think that was very comforting to me. I'll bet. To have just some living stuff to take care of. 

Ron Klemm (27:31)
It's life, exactly. 

Michele Kennedy (27:32)

IIt's life. And especially if you're in your home month after month, there's a real risk of monotony and I think that tending to growing things. was a beautiful aspect of my life in the pandemic.

I think the other big learning for me was taking myself back to school. All of these summer festivals, masterclasses went online. I took a Feldenkrais workshop that I never would have been able to go to in person. A what? Feldenkrais. I've done more Alexander technique in my personal history as a singer and, you know, as an artist, but I wanted to learn more about Feldenkrais as a movement philosophy and I loved this workshop and I still almost every day use things I learned from it. 

Ron Klemm (28:29)
How about that?

One of the things I noticed was that you, you step back and you realize what the important things in life are. Did you have that experience too over that time? 

Michele Kennedy (28:42)
Yes. 

Ron Klemm (28:43)
And what are those?

Michele Kennedy (28:44)
The essentials. Health. Home. Love. Family. That was, I love that you brought that up because that, that was the deepest learning is, you know, what is the bedrock of my life? (29:00) The people I love most, the places that I hold dear and my love of singing. I would go in our old apartment We had this big laundry room in the basement with great acoustics and it was almost always empty It looked out on a garden and I would go there every day Whether or not I had a recording project and I think it also infused in me the love of practice Because I thought you know, we're really used to extrinsic motivators, right? Master classes, concerts. We don't have any of those So what is my motivation? Do I still want to do this? I would ask myself. And I found that I would go down to our laundry room every day and kind of fall in love with the craft of singing just for its own sake. And that was a really wonderful thing.

Ron Klemm (29:55)
Then let me ask you this. If you couldn't sing (30:00) anymore, what would you want to do in life? 

Michele Kennedy (30:04)
I think I would still want to mentor aspiring musicians. Talk about what this career asks of us. Talk about artistic mission and purpose. I also think I would focus on bodywork. Yoga, Pilates, movement, particularly for young women.

Michele Kennedy (30:26)
I think it's very freeing to learn psychosomatically, to learn and cultivate a sense of fully embodied presence in this world, in what you have to say. And to not make apology for your presence. And so I think I would want to work on that, that combination. Mentorship and embodiment in daily practice.

Ron Klemm (30:53)
What's interesting is in the, in the entirety of our conversation so far, something has not come up. You double majored as a, as an undergrad in music, but also in poli sci. 

Michele Kennedy (31:06)
Mmhm.

Ron Klemm (31:07)
So let me ask you this, I'll get you going. If you were the mayor of Oakland or St. Louis or any major city, what would be on your agenda? What would be the first thing you'd want to try to do? 

Michele Kennedy (31:25)
Infuse a deeper connection between. I think I would want to center environmental education much more, which is to say, what are our natural spaces? How do we celebrate them? How do we preserve them? I think I also would want to work on intercultural dialogue, intercultural spaces, creative spaces. I think that placemaking has everything to do with whether people feel they belong in a place or not.

And so in a civic space, it's like, well, how do we help to galvanize and empower people? Not just so that they vote, but so that they feel that they belong. And I think I would want to cultivate civic spaces, educational spaces, places of public gathering that feel safe, clean, like they celebrate the natural world and like they invite absolutely everyone to the table.

Ron Klemm (32:28)
Well, I'd vote for you. Oakland A's or San Francisco Giants? 

Michele Kennedy (32:35)
Oh, Oakland. Oakland all the way. Although, I have to say, I would go NBA. 

Ron Klemm (32:41)
Oh, really? 

Michele Kennedy (32:42)
My dad cultivated in me a love of the NBA from girlhood and so, the Warriors, the Warriors. Yeah, 

(32:49) Michele Kennedy okay, I'll give you that. In St. Louis, we don't have a pro-NBA team, so we don't get that option.

Ron Klemm (32:56)
After a long rehearsal, or a performance day, (33:00) long day, you're tired, you get home kick your shoes off. What do you do? What do you do to relax? What's the thing that relaxes Michele Kennedy? 

Michele Kennedy (33:11) 

I like to have a quiet snack. With my husband Benjamin. 

Ron Klemm (33:17)
Shout out! GoBe Benjamin. 

Michele Kennedy (33:19)
Yeah, yeah. We like to have cereal. It's very glamorous.

We like to have cereal. We like to have popcorn. Maybe watch a show. Maybe just sit on the couch. I think I like stillness and quiet. Because my life has such an abundance of music that for me, unwinding is almost always quiet. Just a chance to kind of breathe and enjoy the peacefulness of our home space. That makes me happy. 

Ron Klemm (33:49)
Gives you joy. 

Well, we all know the desert island question. Let me rephrase it for your context, okay? (34:00) You, you get to the pearly gates and St. Peter greets you and welcome, Michele. So thrilled you're here, but you know, we've been talking to the cherubim and the seraphim and they would like you to sing your way in. What's the piece you sing? 

Michele Kennedy (34:18)
I love from Cantata 151, Süßer Trost. I love that aria. That's a candidate. I will tell you that also the Poulenc Gloria, which I was so honored to sing with the Bach Society of St. Louis in 2019. Is one of my favorite pieces in the universe and if I could sing one of those arias, I would.

Ron Klemm (34:44)
I can't wait. Although we will wait. 

Michele Kennedy (34:50) 
Hopefully, I've got a few years yet. 

Ron Klemm (34:54)
We've got other things to do in the meantime. Thank you so much for spending time with us. You are a joy to be with. 

Michele Kennedy (35:02)
Thank you, Ron. It's been a total pleasure. 

Ron Klemm (35:03)
Rejoice greatly, how about that? 

Michele Kennedy (35:04)
Absolutely, every day.

Ron Klemm (35:59)
Just the final portion of Domini Deus Rex Celestis from The Gloria. by Francis Poulenc in a performance by the Bach Society of St. Louis in December 2019 at Powell Hall. The soloist? Soprano Michele Kennedy in her first appearance with the Bach Society. Musical portions today featured Michele with the Bach Society orchestra and chorus conducted by music director and conductor A. Dennis Sparger. Be sure to check out Michele Kennedy's new recording, In Her Hands, with the Agave Ensemble, available from Asus Productions. For more information, visit agavemusic.org.

Guests of The Bach Society stay at the Hilton St. Louis Frontenac Hotel, featuring old-world charm at the intersection of comfort and convenience. Subscribe to Bach Talk wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more at bachsociety.org.

About Episode 5

The Bach Society Chorus brings together people from all walks of life, united by their love for music. Led by Dr. A. Dennis Sparger, the members boast a collective 575 years of singing experience in the chorus. In this episode of Bach Talk, chorus members share stories of their musical upbringing, the significance of performing Bach's music and the joy music brings to their lives. They also answer the question, “What makes The Bach Society of Saint Louis unique?”

Tune in to hear directly from the vocalists who take great pride in preserving and performing great musical works for themselves and their audiences.

Episode Transcript

Ron Klemm (00:00)
This is Bach Talk.

They come together for a solitary purpose. Teachers, doctors, lawyers, engineers, accountants, people from all walks of life. Young and not so young. Professional singers and volunteers. They hail from all parts of the country, even the world. They wait. They focus. They watch the conductor. They breathe as one and then...

Who are these people? These voices that inspire, that stir our very souls. They sing of joy and sorrow, of conflict and peace, of life and death. They move us. They amaze us. They make us pause and reflect. They forget their own individual cares and struggles. They have a message to deliver. And then, they transport us to realms unknown.

Hello and welcome to a very special edition of Bach Talk, I'm Ron Klemm. Today we'll meet the Bach Society Chorus, a fascinating group of people, a group with many stories to tell. They are part of a legacy that has existed for more than 80 years. The youngest is still a teenager. The oldest? Well, I'll plead the fifth on that one.

Together, as I speak, they boast an unbelievable 575 years of singing in the Bach Society Chorus. Even more amazing, all of those collective years have been under the unprecedented tenure of current music director and conductor Dr. A. Dennis Sparger. We'll hear from Dennis shortly. Rehearsal is a magical time.

Weekly, these people come together ready to craft their collaborative art to join in that irreplicable exercise of singing together. As singers arrive, the anticipation is already palpable, and at the mid rehearsal break, the singers let go, laughing, sharing stories, catching up with each other's lives. So we ask again, who are these people?

Over the course of several weeks, we embarked on a mission to find out. Zach Singer, who is one, a fine tenor with the Bach Society Chorus, Zach and I greeted singers as they arrived. Or, summoned them over at the rehearsal break to our separate perches on opposite sides of the room. I'll identify those singers a little later.

With the help of editor Scott McDonald, we want to share just a portion of those conversations. As we chatted, it became clear immediately that music, singing in particular, was something they've always known. 

Carin Gado (04:07)
I was born into music. I think I don't remember a time when music wasn't a part of my life.

My mom is Swedish, and I know that she used to sing before we were all school-aged. We would sing every day around the piano. And then often send audio tapes home to my grandparents in Sweden. So we were singing, there was a book of songs that we sang all the time. Both in English, but Swedish songs too.

So I don't ever remember a time when I wasn't singing. Music was always a refuge for me. And it was a place that I went to and I never wanted to sully that in my young mind, I wanted to keep it for myself. I quickly discovered as I got older and I was in groups and then I started teaching private lessons, just like love, the more you give it away, the more it begets more musicians and more connection. 

Allen Schwamb (04:59)
I grew up singing in a very musical family. They were always singing together. My dad and mom and my younger sister and I. I used to even do quartets at church, , when I was younger than ten, my sister then three years younger than that probably.

So always singing. I started playing piano at age seven and music has just always, always been a part of my life. 

Allison Neance (05:23)
I don't remember not singing. We sang at home all the time, my mom played the piano, so we were always singing. In the car, oh my gosh, when I was a kid, we didn't have a radio in our car so we would sing or my dad would play the harmonica.

I remember being probably three and climbing up on the piano bench and trying to accompany myself so that I could sing. 

Andy Greenwood (05:48)
Well, you know, my parents didn't have a lot of money when I was growing up and my first instrument, I guess, was a cardboard keyboard at home and I learned to play the keyboard first on paper.

Zach Singer (06:02)
Was it being carried around like a keytar, or?

Andy Greenwood (06:04)
It was, I carried it around in my backpack, a treasured possession, actually. I don't know what happened to that paper keyboard, but my parents eventually got a small electric keyboard. And I took lessons for quite a number of years, played in the school band, and I think we didn't have a bassist one time, and so I was playing the bass part for Grease, which was interesting.

Zach Singer (06:27)
Now, that was on the real keyboard. I'm hoping not.. 

Andy Greenwood (06:29)
That was the real keyboard, yeah. 

Debbie Mann (06:30)
Well, my parents taught me to sing so I could sing in church and be able to participate. And then when I got old enough, I started singing in youth and adult choir and enjoyed making friends there. So they didn't really push me into it.

They just, um, wanted me to be able to participate and be involved and interested. So, um, they taught me how to sing and went from there. 

Matt McEuan (06:47)
Both of my parents were music teachers. So from a very young age, I was brought up singing, brought up around students being taught, and sang in church and school and those kinds of things.

My earliest musical memory was singing All I Want for Christmas is My Two Front Teeth, in a church Christmas concert. 

Nancy Green (07:09)
As a young child, singing in Sunday school. Part of what we did, we sang in Sunday school, we did Christmas programs every year, singing hymns in church. As a child, I was taking piano lessons, I played in the school band. College, they really didn't have a band, but they had a chorus. So, I auditioned for chorus. 

Rachel Jones (07:32)
I have sung ever since I can remember. So, my parents, um, always had music playing in our house at ridiculous volumes. When I think about it now if I was their neighbor, I probably would not have been too happy with them.

But we always listened to a lot of great music. A lot of Grateful Dead, Rolling Stones, I mean really just fun stuff that we all sang and danced around. It was a lot of fun. And on top of that, I was at church every Sunday. Singing hymns. And then when I was older, I sang in choir at my church and in my school. And I just always sang. I actually have never stopped. 

Rosalind Stevens (08:03)
Singing started in high school. I went to a very special high school in Detroit. My first year there, we did the B minor mass. And, it was, it was a school where, because kids came from all over the city. And the school was about a 10 minute bus ride away from Detroit's central hub where all the buses came in.

We would all take our neighborhood buses to downtown and catch a transfer and go up to Cass for about a 10 minute ride. But on the way home, the music kids would gather in the back of the bus on the way back downtown. And we'd sing the Cum Sancto Spiritu a cappella at the back of the bus. It was such fun.

So I just, I caught the, I got on fire for choir at, you know, an atmosphere like that. 

Ron Klemm (08:49)
That's quite a fugue to sing a cappella, by the way. 

Rosalind Stevens (08:51)
Yeah, yeah.

Scott MacDonald (09:16)
I always grew up singing. It was a part of my family. My grandparents sang in the church choir growing up, and I was in that choir loft as often as I could be. It was always just something that was around me and part of me. 

Dr. Shephali Wulff (09:31)
So my mom is a dancer and a choreographer. We grew up with music in our house. So my mom composes music, we had musicians in and out of our house, so there was really no choice that my brother and I were going to study music in some capacity.

So I actually started to take piano lessons, and the woman who was teaching me piano felt like my fingers when I was little were probably not great for piano, right or wrong, and so she had me switch to violin. And I took violin through the Suzuki method, and she would have me sing everything before I played it.

And so that's how I started singing. So she told my mom, you know, I think she has a reasonable voice. Um, and so I auditioned for the Glen Ellyn Children's Chorus when I was five. So I studied violin and voice simultaneously all throughout high school. 

Ron Klemm (10:20)
And this is in the Chicago area? 

Dr. Shephali Wulff (10:21)
The Chicago area. So I sang with Glen Ellyn Children's Choir until I graduated high school. And I played with the Youth Symphony of Chicago.

Susan Niederer (10:27)
I was in an experimental German program. There was an actual German lady who was our teacher. She taught us a lot of German songs, and we did folk dancing. And I just remember, I was in a district that had probably five or six elementary schools. And so we had an itinerant music teacher who would come around.

And I remember just thinking, Well, okay, I'll sing your little songs, but I know German songs. I started playing in the band when I was in fourth grade. After that, my parents bought me a little Magnus chord organ. I don't know if you know what that is, but it was 11:00 a little brown box and with a little knob to turn it on.

And there was a little keyboard, probably about an octave and a half. And then I don't remember, maybe six chord buttons, little dinky thing. And I was starting to read music. So they bought me little music books. And so I started playing little songs, pressing the chord buttons and picking out the melodies.

And then when they heard me playing things that were not in the music books, then my parents said, maybe we should get this child some piano lessons.

Ron Klemm (11:50)
When did you, um, did singing become important? Or was there a time when it was more than just fun, it was like, wow, this is something I need to do? 

Rosalind Stevens (12:04)
Basically high school. I told my parents and my piano teacher that I wanted voice lessons. And my piano teacher said, well, that means you can't be very serious about piano. I'm not going to teach you anymore. So she threw me out. So I had voice lessons and I was I was quite happy for a number of years after that. 

Maggie Loew (12:22)
I absolutely, I mean all through high school, you know, I went to the competitions and that was really cool. So people knew me as a singer and I mean it was kind of my little, my little niche in school, in high school.

So you know, you got to have something, so yeah, it was just something that it's just always spurred me on everywhere I've gone I've just needed to sing with other people. 

Andy Greenwood (12:47)
My church started off a kids choir. I joined and um, we had a change in pastor and it was quite interesting. They were sort of overly puritanical and they abolished the choir.

They believed only in unison singing, monophonic singing and I never quite understood why they got rid of the choir. I thought it was strange and I think that's why I've loved choirs as I got older because I never understood why someone would try to take that away from anybody, let alone a child. So I think I've loved choral music because of that experience. 

Nancy Green (13:20)
I think it was very gradual. Because when I first went to college, I was a business major. And at the end of four years, they had just started a new major in music, either conducting or organ playing. And so, I had had four years of organ lessons, and so I just went ahead and did another year, did all of the music classes, the theory classes, the orchestration, yeah, all of that. So, and I think that's when it flipped. 

Zach Singer (13:56)
When did this become important to you, or is it just because it was important to your parents, it was then important to you? 

Matt McEuan (14:01)
No, it was ingrained in me pretty early, but then, I, when I was a child in grade school, I joined the American Boy Choir, which was, at the time, a boarding school in Princeton, New Jersey, and so 6th through 8th grade I was in a boarding school with that would tour around and teach you your school subjects on the road while you toured the U. S. and the world. So that, that also was a great opportunity and got a lot of musical experience and life experience pretty early. 

Stephanie McSwain (14:32)
I think it was closer to high school when, you know, you're kind of looking for those groups of people that you know you mesh with. Those were my people singing everything from pop songs to Christian to rock, to classical, everything. Those were my people. 

Theresa Flores (14:49)
I mean, all that I've ever really wanted to do as a career is music. I've always really loved the idea of working in a church, which is why I decided to do that rather than teaching. Originally I got my first Paris job when I was 20. and just kind of kept learning and going as, as I went along.

Scott MacDonald (15:06)
It was always just something that was around me and part of me. Um, but it was something that I, I kind of lost for a while. College came and I didn't major in music, and I just kind of let it slip out of my life. It wasn't until I was in graduate school, my second year of graduate school, that I had a friend who just happened to be involved in a musical theater group and told me that I had to come and join.

And I did, and it was such a relieving and inspiring and motivating experience in my life that year that I, you know, when I started, Working full time, I resolved that I had to make that a part of my life. 

Zach Singer (15:51)
Now, was that just like an immediate, like you walked in the first rehearsal and realized, Oh, this is what I was missing, or was that?

Scott MacDonald (15:58)
It really was. It was just the immediate satisfaction of singing with other people. Of singing in a choir and harmonizing and being Not just one, but among many. 

Dr. Shephali Wulff (16:11)
You know, the older I got, there started to be a distinction between people that were really serious about studying music, and were going to pursue solo careers, um, and people who were doing it as a hobby. And I was one of those people. 

Ron Klemm (16:25)
And you were okay with that? 

Dr. Shephali Wulff (16:25)
I was fine with that. Because it filled a space in my life. I didn't need it to be something that I was going to do for money. It just brings me joy.

Ron Klemm (16:59)
What brings you joy? What is it that gives you the greatest joy?

Nancy Green (17:06)
I just love music. That's what I do in my regular life. It's just, my whole life is music. It's my release. I've learned so much about music, about singing, It just feeds your soul. 

Rachel Jones (17:25)
What gives me joy in like this context definitely is like working hard with my friends and producing something beautiful. I love that. 

Ron Klemm (17:33)
The process and the result. 

Rachel Jones (17:35)
Absolutely. What I really love about singing, especially singing masterworks, especially singing old music, is I do feel a connection to everyone who has sung this music before. And when I think about the audience, they are also connected to anyone who ever heard that. And what I love about it is they share that, but every person is internalizing and experiencing it in an entirely unique way.

Dan Denner (17:56)
I try to be a joyful person and that I have to sometimes force myself to be that at our last concert. Um, I looked over and my son came to our concert and, and afterwards he's like, dad, that's just incredible. And he's a nine year old kid. When I was a nine year old kid, I was not thinking about choral music or orchestra music.

And he just said how beautiful it was. And that gave me so much joy. That, that to me is, you know, Enough reason to keep doing it. 

Rosalind Stevens (18:24)
When the stuff we struggle with comes together and then blossoms into something meaningful and beautiful, it's that, it's that working journey. Then we finally arrive at that point where we think, Aha, this is it, so this is, this is why we're doing it.

The joy of singing, the joy of the, it's, it's, sometimes it's a total body experience to breathe and listen and sing and just feel your whole body making that sound and contributing to that overall glorious sound that The Bach Society has.

Zach Singer (19:22)
Why the Bach Society? 

Matt McEuan (19:24)
For me, it's that there is such a strong emphasis on both the musical aspect of, of choral music and the mission of performing sacred choral music. Great music and sacred music and it's a, it would be a treat to have either one of those on its own, but to have both of them in the same choir at such a high level is very special.

Maggie Loew (19:49)
I, I tell you, and I think part of it is I've been here so long. So I know so many people. There's so many roots here, and there's so many wonderful people in this chorus. I am just 20:00 so thrilled to be here because the bar is so high that I feel like every Monday night when I leave, I have really accomplished something tonight, you know?

Andy Greenwood (20:10)
I love Bach. I don't know what it is about his music that connects with me. It's something on a spiritual level, on a musical level. I love this particular choir, the people in the choir. You'll learn some wonderful music in this choir. It's not just Bach, it's obviously other things. The choir is extremely active in the community. They have this wonderful program of outreach and education. 

Carin Gado (20:34)
The people are very friendly. The quality of the music is outstanding. For me, music is about connection. Connection to people that I'm singing with, but also connection, really with greatness and with inspiration. And you can only sort of feel that inspiration once you reach a level of musicianship.

Scott MacDonald (20:54)
I think it's one of the most rewarding and rich experiences I've had as a singer. Working, for one, with Dr. Sparger is just a fantastic experience. But it's just such a really dedicated and passionate community of singers that really has been such a galvanizing experience to sing with. 

Zach Singer (21:18)
Why have you stuck around this long? Is it Dennis? Is it the music? What is it? 

Shaun Neance (21:22)
You know, it's a lot of things. I think, you know, one of the big things is the organization. They have a strong support organization, I think both in the board of directors and then administratively, you know, in the front office with the executive director, and there's always been a consistency there that has kept.

And, and I will credit Dennis with that too. The, you know, as a music director. keeping the level of output of the group so consistent. If you don't already know that you, when you hear the group, and then you hear the name The Bach Society, you will come to expect a level of, you know, a certain bar of musicianship and professionalism.

And I think, you know, again, when you hear it, you'll know the difference. There is no such beauty as where you live.

Ron Klemm (22:30)
The Bach Society Chorus conducted by A. Dennis Sparger with just a small portion of “The Road Home”. And before that, “I Have Called You By Name”. The music of the late Stephen Paulus, one of a number of composers who have written music specifically for the Bach Society. More from members of the chorus, plus a word from Maestro Sparger straight ahead. You're listening to Bach Talk.

Ron Klemm (23:02)
Suppose that we couldn't have any audience. What would motivate you to still come on a Monday night and rehearse with the Bach Society? Would you still do it? 

Rosalind Stevens (23:11)
Absolutely. I still have the same experience whether anybody's listening or not. It's gratifying to understand that we share that with people, but we have that experience whether we share it with an audience or not, because we share it with each other.

Rachel Jones (23:26)
You know, I was in like little living room groups of early musicians when, you know, when I lived in Germany and we didn't perform in any capacity anything like this. And it was still fun, but it's very rewarding to share your art. The audience, you do it for the audience. You want to just share that experience.

We work so hard week to week to pick the music apart, to get everything just perfect, to put it back together and to share it. So, to have that, that church or that concert venue full of people who need to hear what we're doing and what we're singing and the texts that we're singing, that's huge. To know that even one song out of an entire repertoire list can touch one person, that's enough.

Ron Klemm (24:19)
What if there were no audiences?

Stephanie McSwain (24:21)
Oh no. 

Ron Klemm (24:21)
Would you still do it? 

Stephanie McSwain (24:22)
Yeah, I would, but it wouldn't, it wouldn't be quite the same. 

Ron Klemm (24:25)
Why? 

Stephanie McSwain (24:26)
It's amazing to be here every Monday and rehearse and have that sense of community, um, and to shut part of my brain off, right? And explore a different part of my brain, but there, when we're singing in front of an audience, there's energy that's coming back from the audience.

It's sort of like giving a gift. That's how I think about it. It is nice to receive a gift. It's also really satisfying to give a gift that you know is meaningful. And being able to share what we're working on over six weeks with an audience feels like giving a gift. 

Maggie Loew (25:14)
But I gotta tell you, Dennis is the real deal. He is a phenomenal director, and every year he gets better. He's very demanding, but in a very nice way. Okay, so, but, but he knows what he wants, and we do it over and over until we get exactly what he wants. And that is why we can rise to the accomplishments that we get to. 

Stephanie McSwain (25:38)
Nobody directs a choir like Dennis. He, he gets it. It's more than just the notes on the page. The background that he brings with the historical aspect of everything to draw out exactly how it was meant to sound. 

Theresa Flores (25:54)
Getting to work with somebody like Dennis is a once in a lifetime opportunity. I, you know, I've had the opportunity to study under some great conductors but like his efficiency of rehearsal is very inspiring to me as a choral conductor.

Rachel Jones (26:07)
It's the dedication that Dennis has and his care for every programmatic decision that he's thinking so much about this balance of giving the audience an incredible experience but also serving the singers as well in a way like presenting us with interesting repertoire, presenting us with a challenge and that's such a hard balance to strike and I've seen him do it consistently.

Ron Klemm (26:39)
We've heard the thoughts of nearly a third of The  Bach Society of Saint Louis Chorus. And in the end, they paid tribute to the high bar of musicianship, keen community awareness, and rock solid stability provided by their artistic leader. Appropriate then, that we hear his take. Zach Singer talked to Bach Society music director and conductor since 1986, Dr. A. Dennis Sparger. 

Zach Singer (27:10)
What makes The  Bach Society of Saint Louis different than any other choral organization?

Dennis Sparger (27:15)
Well, yeah, at my last count there were more than 40 independent choruses in the St. Louis region. They all serve a special purpose. And all of them are needed to serve the interests and the abilities of singers all over our community.

Our focus, of course, is on the music of Bach and to sing the music of Bach, this requires vocal training for our singers, some exceptional musicianship. The ability to blend the voice, solid intonation, flexibility of vibrato. Our singers have to be experienced singing in German and Latin, and Germanized Latin.

Our rehearsals are pretty intense. You know, we stop, of course, every once in a while to lighten up, maybe to have a laugh, and then we get right back to work. So we also need a lot of concentration to go two and a half hours and stay on top of everything we're doing. We also expect our singers to have a commitment to attending rehearsals regularly and to have individual preparation so they come to a rehearsal really ready to go, because rehearsals tend to be more about the interpretation of the music, the final shaping of it, and hardly ever about the learning of notes.

Some of the major Bach works we have on a rotation for example, we receive funding to cover the expenses of performing Bach's Mass in B Minor every three years. in perpetuity. That's huge. But it's also about who we are. That's the work that the Bach Society began with. It's the work that our founder came back to again and again to perform.

 And it's one that means so much to us as well. A few words about the preparation and execution. A few years ago, our friend David Gordon was here with us for a week during the Bach Festival. And, you know, he's a great Bach singer and Bach educator. And, and one of the things he told us that I remember so well is that you don't have to be a Lutheran to sing Bach.

You don't have to be a Christian. You don't even have to be a believer. But what you must know is that Bach was all three. And that helps us, I think, whether we're doing the music of Bach. or any other composer, to trying to understand the perspective of the composer when the music was being written and how it relates to us and then to our audience.

For me, as the conductor. You know, I have to study this music, you know, months in advance, sometimes years in advance. You know, look for relationships within the music look at its overall shape, its historical context, and determine an interpretation, um, that helps reveal to our performers and our audience what this music is all about.

My goal is to present a performance that A composer coming back to life today would recognize as his own piece. Um, I realized that when Bach presented something to his audience, they had never heard Mozart, or Beethoven, or Wagner, or Stravinsky. So what we need to do is try to find how did audiences respond to his music in those days, and then what do we do today to bring that same response back from the singers? 

Zach Singer (30:30)
That seems like a large challenge.

Dennis Sparger (30:33)
It is a bit challenging. But sometimes it means a chord might be louder than usual. Or there may be a greater pause between one little section and another. Um, we may have a little more excitement, a little faster rhythm to try to help our audience connect with what the composer had in mind for his audience.

As a conductor, I strive for clarity and consistency in each rehearsal and each performance. I want my singers and my orchestra players to know that what they see me do in the first rehearsal is what I will do in the fifth rehearsal and the eighth rehearsal, the dress rehearsal, and then the final performance with the exception of what I call the 95 percent rule.

And that is I want everyone to know exactly what I'm going to do Except for what may change at that moment of inspiration when there's an audience behind us listening. And for a good example of that in our most recent concert that just had some incredibly beautiful music I reached a point In conducting this piece, this magnificent piece, I realized they don't need me anymore.

I can just drop my hands and listen like anyone in the audience and just take it all in. And just be a part of the listening experience. And then, of course, pick up when I realized, you know, singers and players needed to see the downbeat again. That's fair. But it was, you know, quite exciting. 

Zach Singer (31:58)
Speaking from the audience, from the ensemble side, it shows that you trust us.

Dennis Sparger (32:02)
I do trust. 

Zach Singer (32:03)
In a way that not a lot of organization leaders tend to. 

Dennis Sparger (32:06)
I think our organization just has a lot of trust going in both directions. The singers know they can trust me, and I know I can trust them to follow through. 

Zach Singer (32:17)
On that line then, what do you want the legacy of the Bach Society to mean? 

Dennis Sparger (32:21)
Ah, the legacy question. Well, our founder, William Heyne, devoted over half his life to founding and leading and shaping The  Bach Society of Saint Louis. He was motivated to share the music of Bach with all the people of our community. He was followed by four, you know, incredible conductors who continued with the music of Bach and broadened our repertoire with music by other composers as well.

My responsibility has been to maintain and uphold this legacy. That's focused on the music of Bach and to bring our performances to ever higher levels of performance so we really reach our audiences with dramatic and exciting music. I hope that through my work I'm able to inspire our performers and the audience with significant and meaningful music choral music is to me a Brings our connection with great art, you know, painters and sculptors from a century or two or three or four or five ago, you know, have their great works of art in museums that we can go and visit. But our job is to bring to life these great pieces of art from our past. I find in the music we perform, it reaffirms our faith, and it also brings comfort and hope to our audiences.

Ron Klemm (34:13)
A portion of the Sanctus from the Mass in B minor by Johann Sebastian Bach. That's from a concert in March of 2022. All musical excerpts taken today from concerts by the  Bach Society of Saint Louis, with the exception of piano pieces recorded by Bach Society accompanist for the past 26 seasons, Sandra Geary.

Special thanks today to interviewer Zach Singer for drawing out those shy and reserved members of the Bach Society Chorus. And to editor Scott McDonald for creating the audio montages. Participating chorus members included Alison Neace, Allen Schwamb, Andy Greenwood, Carin Gado, Dan Denner, Debbie Mann, Maggie Loew, Matt McEuan, Nancy Green, Rachel Jones, Rosalind Stevens, Scott MacDonald, Shawn Neace, Dr. Shephali Wulff, Stephanie McSwain, Susan Niederer and Theresa Flores. Additional assistance for today's episode provided by Rachel Jones, Ila Klemm and Dennis Sparger. Subscribe to Bach Talk wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more at bachsociety.org. Bach Talk is a trademark of the  Bach Society of Saint Louis. I'm Ron Klemm.

About Episode 4

Join us for a captivating profile of Dutch soprano Josefien Stoppelenburg in the latest episode of Bach Talk with host Ron Klemm. This conversation offers a look into her love for music, visual art and her formative musical experiences in the Netherlands. Josefien’s beautiful paintings and other works of art are eclipsed only by her magnificent voice. She shares her approach to singing, which emphasizes thorough preparation and emotion, experiences performing with her sister and even her favorite TV show. Don’t miss the chance to learn more about this dazzling artist.

Connect with Josefien

Josefienstoppelenburg.com | josefienstoppelenburg-art.com

About Episode 3

This episode of Bach Talk captures a visit with host Ron Klemm, The Bach Society of Saint Louis' Music Director and Conductor A. Dennis Sparger and harpsichordist Dr. Charles Metz. He gives insights into the history of the harpsichord, the instrumentalist’s role in an ensemble and his personal experiences as a musician. Throughout the conversation, Charles plays examples on some of his many instruments. Tune in to hear this dynamic musician and charming instrument firsthand.

Episode Transcript

Ron Klemm 0:00
This is Bach Talk.

What you're hearing is not Bach. In fact, it's music that was written nearly 100 years before Johann Sebastian Bach was born. The composer, well, we're not even absolutely certain of that. It's attributed to a William Tisdale from 16th century England. But it's the instrument and the artist who provide the most intrigue.

Hello, I'm Ron Klemm. Welcome to Bach Talk This little Lavon is being played on a remarkable 430 year old keyboard instrument called the virginal. It's an instrument with an amazing story and we'll hear more about it shortly. And it's being played by an even more amazing person. Dr. Charles Metz is both an optometrist, and a qualified degreed expert in historical music performance. nevermind the fact that he's also a marvelous performer and a genuinely nice guy. Charlie is the man in the middle of the Bach Society Orchestra. From the harpsichord, he provides the center of the musical focus from his pivotal position, the drama and excitement radiate. We sat down with Charlie not too long ago, and not long after he had had some rather serious surgery on his vocal cords. But not to worry, he's back to normal. He was just a tad hoarse. When we sat down for our little chat. Dennis Sparger, music director and conductor of the Bach Society joined us in the beautiful mellow library at Ladue Chapel. We wanted to learn more about Dr. Charles Metz, the man, his music, his dual paths in life, and his myriad of keyboard instruments. So how did it all begin?

Charles Metz 2:28
I had two older sisters, that both played the piano, and me being the only boy and being very competitive, decided that I needed to do what they were doing, and that I could do it better. So I had the sort of unfortunate habit of finding out what their pieces were that they were to learn for their lesson. And I would then learn the pieces because I was a fairly quick learner. And then I'd say, Is this the piece you're supposed to play for your lesson this week?

Ron Klemm 3:00
Now, how old are you?

Charles Metz 3:02
About seven, eight.

Ron Klemm 3:03
Wow, the Mozart.

Charles Metz 3:07
My mother thought I was a Mozart. Sadly, it was not quite the case. So those are my first memories. So, you know, music became very, very important for me, in playing the piano was just a unique experience. For me. It's something that came very naturally for me. And it always was a great pleasure for me. And I kept it all my life.

Ron Klemm 3:27
And when did you decide, You know what, this is more than just fun? I could do this?

Charles Metz 3:34
That's a hard question. In a way, I always sort of thought that. That it would be, in a way, not my full passion, but definitely a full part of my life. In fact, I started out in pre med in college, it did switch back into music, and then finished a degree in Music here at Washington University, but then ended up being an optometrist for 20 years in such a way that I can now go back and enjoy music to the level that I want. So it's been a great, great travel for me and music has been a constant companion.

Ron Klemm 4:08
So we can call you Dr. Dr. Charles Metz.

Charles Metz 4:11
Technically, that is correct.

Ron Klemm 4:15
Let's talk about the second doctor, which is the historical performance practice doctorate that must be something that really floated your boat at the time.

Charles Metz 4:28
Actually, it was my first doctorate I did the music first and then went into optometry as a means to an end, so to speak. But I had some friends I was at Penn State University and there was a group that I played with, and we were all doing early music with harpsichord. And they had gotten scholarships to come to Washington University, because at that point, they had a program in what was called historical performance practice, which is based on understanding music as it was composed in the time and what the composer's knew in terms of what they heard and the instruments that they had available. So it's all about reinterpreting music, as it was as much as we can make happen, heard by the composers of their day. And I resonated with that. I thought it was a very appropriate way to understand music and to perform music because it brings an insight into it that isn't flavored by 19th century stylistic changes.

A. Dennis Sparger 5:28
And that kind of brings me to the time when I met you, I calculated earlier today how long we've known one another, rather than mention, I'll just say it's from the last century and, and you came to join a group I was conducting at the time called The Masterworks Chorale, and you played in a Madrigal Feast. And, of course, you had to put on tights and

Charles Metz 5:52
I remember of that very well.

A. Dennis Sparger 5:52
slippers and all of this.

Ron Klemm 5:54
Are there pictures?

A. Dennis Sparger 5:54
I think there are, how did you feel about doing something unusual is that?

Charles Metz 5:59
I actually enjoyed it, because actually, it wasn't my first time I had a gig one summer playing at Williamsburg, Virginia at the Busch Gardens, and I was playing at the Elizabethan Globe. And so I was in tights and with the whole the whole guard. And I had built a virginal and we would carry it out and play for 20 minutes and then would carry it back in again. So So I was I was accustomed to tights and in collars, ruffled collars.

A. Dennis Sparger 6:25
Oh, wow, what what fun those days were when I started conducting the Bach Society in 1986. You played in that first performance? And the big piece on the program was Contado, 51 by Bach. And Christine Brewer was the soloist?

Charles Metz 6:41
Yes. If we'd only known at that time.

A. Dennis Sparger 6:43
Had we only known at that time?

Well, I think we did actually,

Where she would end, Of course, we're all of us would have gone with our careers as well. Yeah. I've kind of wondered, in all of these years that you've played with us, has there been a favorite performance or a highlight that really sticks with you?

Charles Metz 7:00
Well, there have been a lot I certainly enjoyed a lot of the Handel Oratorios that we did. But I have to say that going back to the Bach B minor, always thrills me. And even the Messiah. You know, I have a love hate with Messiah.

Ron Klemm 7:15
I think a lot of people do.

Charles Metz 7:17
I've heard it so many times. And I've played it so many times. But every time I go on, not again, but every time I'm playing it, it moves me and is quite thrilling. So

A. Dennis Sparger 7:27
it's a great piece of music,

Charles Metz 7:28
It is.

A. Dennis Sparger 7:28
even if it is done, you know, so many times, yes.

Charles Metz 7:31
And I have to say the Bach Society has given me some of the most beautiful highlights musically in my life. I remember just sitting in the orchestra and having chills go down my spine because of the things that I heard and things that I was participating in. So I will always, always thank The Bach Society for those opportunities.

A. Dennis Sparger 7:48
That's wonderful. We feel those things too.

Ron Klemm 7:51
You mentioned the word virginal, and I want to make sure that people heard it right. But we're going to talk more about that and about a lot of other keyboard instruments when we come right back. I'm with Maestro Dennis Sparger and our special guest today, Dr. Dr. Charles Metz. I'm Ron Klemm, and this is Bach Talk.

We're talking with Charlie Metz, who is do you say principal harpsichordist, with The Bach Society, or we're gonna call him that today.

A. Dennis Sparger 8:36
He is the only harpsichordist. I think in all of these years that I've used someone else, I think maybe twice at the most when you were previously booked, and we couldn't get you.

Ron Klemm 8:45
I think that qualifies this. I guess not all harpsichords are created equal.

Charles Metz 8:50
That was quite correct, Ron.

Ron Klemm 8:52
So so go ahead and play the historical performance card here and help us understand what some of these instruments are like.

Charles Metz 9:01
One of the things I find fascinating about this world of keyboards in the 18th century, is it wasn't uniform. There wasn't just one harpsichord. Like we have one modern piano now that everyone's used to and you see it and you hear it and you know it. Back in the day they were Flemish harpsichords, French harpsichords, German harpsichords, Italian harpsichords. And they all were slightly different in terms of their construction. The words that they used, even the keyboards were a little bit different styles and different sizes. And they also match the music of that country and exploited the elements of say Italian music, which have a much more pungent kind of speaking, where the French harpsichord is much silkier, and smoother and a sound which sort of reflects the suave nature of the high French society.

Ron Klemm 9:53
You've got a couple of instruments here we want to play some examples of tell us about these Flemish instruments now

Charles Metz 10:00
Flemish harpsichords there was one particular family called the Ruckers family, which was a multi generational family from father to son to grandson, and they were building harpsichords at the highest level in Antwerp, and they were considered today they are considered considered the Stratovarius of the harpsichord world. These were highly prized instruments. In fact, they were used 100 years later to be rebuilt and what's called rafamonte where they made them larger so they would have expanse that they could play the later repertoire, but the sound was was the true sound of a harpsichord and it's never really changed and, and so the Flemish harpsichord is, to me one of the truest and most pure harpsichord sounds.

A. Dennis Sparger 10:54
Sounds like the gold standard.

Charles Metz 10:56
Absolutely. And it still is today, a lot of the Bakers who still make harpsichords often still copy Ruckers instruments.

Ron Klemm 11:03
So let's, can we listen to a little Bach from this 17th century, flemish instrument?

Charles Metz 11:07
I have a particular instrument that sets at the Metropolitan Museum in New York, the instrument at the Met does not play. But I had a builder friend, Walter Burr, who made a copy of it, it took him five years to do this copy. But it is a really excellent reproduction of this particular instrument, as it would have been built in about 1650.

Ron Klemm 11:30
And here's a little bit of music on that harpsichord from one of the Bach's French Suites.

We're talking with Charlie Metz, our harpsichordist with The Bach Society of St. Louis Dennis Sparger, our music director alongside tell us a little bit more Charlie about these, these, these instruments or let's let's pick it up from that 17 century Flemish instrument what came next?

Charles Metz 12:53
Well, we can even go behind a little bit or before I do have an original 400 year old Italian virginal that I actually found in Fairview Heights, a neighborhood of St. Louis, about 10 years ago, and no, actually a little bit longer. But it was being sold as a piece of painted furniture, I was able to get it, get it restored. And it turns out is one of 18 in the world by this particular maker, who died in Florence, Italy in 1634. We believe this instrument I have was probably built at around 1590. So it's a late Renaissance, early early Baroque instrument. And they were very much favored during the Elizabethton times. In fact, Queen Elizabeth had an Italian virginal of very similar to this. And so I'm very happy to have this instrument. I have played it around the country. I have played it at the Smithsonian. And I've recently about two years ago did a CD on it as well.

A. Dennis Sparger 13:47
Wow.

Charles Metz 13:48
Which is available on Apple Music and Spotify and all the rest of it.

Ron Klemm 13:51
Very good. What's the title of it?

Charles Metz 13:53
is called Tisdale Virginal Music.

Ron Klemm 13:55
Wonderful. We will look that up. I can only imagine the the word fragility comes to mind. You play on this instrument and I don't wouldn't want to get near it. I'm afraid I you know, spill something on it.

Charles Metz 14:10
Well, of course there is that but it has survived 400 years. So it's a pretty tough little cookie. It's gone through a lot and still come out just fine on the other side. So yeah, a lot of people think that harpsichords are terribly fragile. And of course there is there's a certain nature that is could be destroyed, I suppose if something terrible happened to it, but but they are actually a well balanced and well built instrument that can stand quite, quite a lot.

Ron Klemm 14:36
When people people talk about piano, they know that you press the key and a hammer is activated and hits a string. The sound is made differently with a harpsichord. So first of all, explain how a harpsichord is sounded.

Charles Metz 14:52
Well, very simply. The harpsichord mechanism was around for about 300 years. And it is a simple jack or a piece of wood that out of the top is a plectrum, which comes up and actually plucks the string on the way up, and then is cut in such a way that it'll swivel past the string on the way down. And then a piece of felt will dampen the string. So we have no pedals like you have on a on a piano, there's no ability to make it ring longer except to hold it with your fingers. So it's a very simple plucking mechanism. And because of that, there are no dynamics, no matter how hard you hit the key is always the same loudness. So just like an organ you have different stops, you have different colors that you can use. But all the expression is done through what are called agogic accents, slight little rhythmic accents, and also through what's called articulation. If you put a space before a note, the ear perceives that that note is being louder. And so it's a very subtle way of being able to create phrasing and create tension within a line of music by by these what are called articulations.

A. Dennis Sparger 16:00
Well, I've noticed in the past that sometimes you play more notes to get more sound, or fewer notes to be softer. We've had you a few times as a soloist. A few years ago, we did Bach's Brandenburg 5, and we're doing that again, this coming spring along with a harpsichord concerto by Bach. But most often you're playing continuo with us. And well, musicians tend to understand what that word means. A general audience may not they may see listed in the program and continual and 2, 3, 4 names listed. But what is that?

Charles Metz 16:33
Yes, great question. And a lot of people don't know. And this is one of the other things that drew me to the harpsichord because I'm not just playing notes that are written out on the page, for me continuo, in a way is a very early cheat sheet or jazz, kind of ability to play whatever you feel like however, you want to make the sound, fuller, less full. And basically what they did is they had a number system that would go underneath the what's called the baseline. And that number system will tell you what harmony to play. And that's all I've got. So you learn those numbers, you learn the harmonies. And then from there, you make up the music as you go. And I think that's the thrilling part of playing continuo.

A. Dennis Sparger 17:18
Yeah, I think you have to, like create melody on top of that like to be able to go counter melody to whatever else was going on.

Charles Metz 17:24
Exactly. And that was all part of the teaching back in the 18th century. They didn't teach people just to read music and play. They taught them how to compose. And that was part of it. And and Bach did that with his students, of course. And so yeah, so reading the figure bass was step one, and then adding melodic and elaborations on the melody was step two and composing the step three.

A. Dennis Sparger 17:45
So essentially, you're looking at one staff with the bass part, and with the numbers or figures underneath, hence the name of the figured bass. And then you create the top. If you're lucky, you may get another staff that shows you like what a singer is doing. Especially if you're accompanying recitative. So you have an idea of where to place the harmonies. Do you change the the information, you know, like the realization of the chords or the voicing of them? Or the melodic part? Do you change that every time you play?

Charles Metz 18:14
Yes, I do, actually. And I find it actually difficult to sit in practice continuo by myself. I really only can do it when I'm playing with somebody because then I can bounce off of them and I can respond and that's what continuo is all about.

A. Dennis Sparger 18:28
Well, you could sing and play at the same.

Charles Metz 18:30
Not these days.

Ron Klemm 18:32
Not today. Speaking of the 18th century, you also have or play often a Is it your instrument, French 18th century instrument?

Charles Metz 18:41
I do, it was when I first harpsichords.

Ron Klemm 18:43
Okay, and tell us about that.

Charles Metz 18:44
I met this harpsichord builder in upstate New York by the name of Walter Berg. And he has studied with some of the famous makers in Boston. And he was making historical copies, you know, 30 years ago, and he copied an instrument that's at the Smithsonian in Washington, DC. It was a French instrument that was made in 1760. And it's a stillan instrument, and it's a double manual and covers all the repertoire of the 18th century and it's still I still have the instrument it's still a favorite of mine.

Ron Klemm 19:17
But compared to the instrument we heard a little bit earlier. What's the difference?

Charles Metz 19:23
The stringing is slightly different. The scale length is different, where the plectrum plucks the string is slightly different, or which creates a slightly different sound, and it'll be more mellow, and a little bit more.

Ron Klemm 19:37
It's warmer.

Charles Metz 19:38
Yes,

Ron Klemm 19:39
Don't you think?

Charles Metz 19:39
Yeah.

Ron Klemm 19:40
Let's hear a little Bach played on that. 18th century French harpsichord.

Ah, Bach played on the harpsichord by our special guest, Charlie Matz, who is principal harpsichordist. With the box Society of St. Louis. We're here with Dennis Sparger it's it's exciting to talk about these things. But I just wonder if if people really understand that you're right in the middle of everything. That must be a special spot?

Charles Metz 20:40
Well, of course it is. And back in the old days, we didn't have to conductors very often in the in the Baroque time, and it was the harpsichordist's job to lead the orchestra or sometimes the first violinists. But you're absolutely right, the harpsichord is in the middle of it. And the other aspect of the harpsichord and why it was so popular within a group is that it functions in two ways. One is because the pluck of the harpsichord is so precise, that it allows the orchestral members to hear the beat. So it's very important for the harpsichord is to keep the beat and to keep the tempo steady, or whatever it's doing so that they can hear it. So there's the element of the harpsichord is an ensemble thing that keeps the group together.

Ron Klemm 21:26
Sounds like in other types of music to be the drummer, given the beat.

Charles Metz 21:30
In a way, you're absolutely right.

Ron Klemm 21:54
We're talking to Charlie Metz, our harpsichordist, and you have a kind of a I don't want to say dual citizenship. But you've, you've spent an awful lot of time here in St. Louis. But now you're kind of spending time in the West these days a little bit. Tell us more about that.

Charles Metz 22:10
Well, again, my life is, is directed by my musical pursuits. I was in St. Louis for many, many years. And then I branched out to Chicago, and worked with various groups up there. And now I've pulled out of Chicago completely. I did a lot of work in Kansas City, as well. And I've gone to California and recently rented a house. I'm living in Palm Springs, but I rented a house in downtown LA, once again, to expand my musical context. And I'm having a great time doing it. I you know, music drives me, every day I wake up thinking about it and what I can do with it.

A. Dennis Sparger 22:48
Do you always have a performance to look forward to in the near future?

Charles Metz 22:53
Yeah, I have certainly before COVID, I was doing a performance nearly every two weeks somewhere. Everything quieted down to of course, during COVID. I kind of liked that actually, it was kind of fun. So I'm not doing as much as I did. But no, I'm still I'm still driven by performance. I still love doing it. I still love getting in front of the audience. And it's, it gives me a lot of inspiration.

Ron Klemm 23:14
I think I know the answer. We have them ask it anyway. You don't need to be coming back to St. Louis all the time and performing with the Bach Society, yet you do it?

Speaker 2 23:23
Well, of course I do it because I've been doing this for a long time. It's tradition, you know, and I have friends here and, and The Bach Society is a very good musical group. And, you know, I'll play with any group that's a high level and Bach Society, it certainly is that so yeah, I will I will do it as long as they ask me.

A. Dennis Sparger 23:39
You're very kind. This is a little bit off the topic of harpsichord but still within the realm of keyboard. You know, I still remember when you when you brought to town, your forte piano and played at the home of Todd and Kathryn Edwards. So we're in a very, very large living room. But hearing that instruments, and I'll never forget you're playing Beethoven's Fifth release a piece that somewhat is boring because you know, children work on this. And yet to hear this played on the 40 piano was just a revelation. It just was amazing. Such an experience. And I know you're doing other music on the fortepiano as well.

Charles Metz 24:21
Yes, thanks, Dennis. I appreciate that comment. And that goes drives home. My whole idea of historical performance practice you when you play music on any instrument that it was written for, sometimes you can get an insight that you didn't have before. And the Forte piano is a much lighter sound much more transparent. And the fortepiano I have has some extra sort of stops, there's what's called a moderator, which puts fell between the hammer in the string so it creates this muted sound. And I use that on that that piece, and it creates another whole world of sound that they were very familiar with. Remember, the piano just didn't get invented? Why? One day the harpsichord was dying out, the piano was being invented and the early pianos had many different stops just like the harpsichord did. So it was the transition through those instruments until we get to the modern piano that basically has an una corta, which doesn't change much, and a damper pedal. And that's all there is. There's no other ways to change the sound. And these early instruments had many ways of changing

Ron Klemm 25:22
and Beethoven

Charles Metz 25:23
they knew this

Ron Klemm 25:24
they knew this Yeah, yes, yeah, pretty amazing.

A. Dennis Sparger 25:27
We've read that Bach was not too impressed with the Forte piano, but I think that was rather earlier in his life. And he may have changed his opinion, by the time he came to the end.

Charles Metz 25:36
Exactly. Right. He actually, there's been more research recently, and he actually became a salesman for or at least spoke well, for a certain piano builder at the time. The early instruments he played were not good mechanically. And I think that was this issue. But as they got better, he really grew to like it. Yeah. And certainly, son CPE Bach,

A. Dennis Sparger 25:58
Yes. Oh, yeah.

Charles Metz 25:59
Certainly took it.

A. Dennis Sparger 26:00
Do you think you're ready to take up the accordion?

Charles Metz 26:02
Well, maybe someday,

A. Dennis Sparger 26:05
I've got one I can sell you.

Ron Klemm 26:06
And I know a great teacher. Yes. What gives you the greatest joy?

Charles Metz 26:15
I hesitate, but I have to say the some of the greatest joy is not just performing but it's actually practicing. There's nothing more beautiful than getting up in the morning. And then walking over the harpsichord and sitting down and playing a  Prelude and Fugue No.1 Well Tempered Clavier Bach, it just starts my day. And it there's something so, so magical and so life affirming for me. And Bach comes into that a lot. But just playing the instrument and practicing. And now with these other pianos, I have a square piano now, and I'm recently getting a later 1838 piano copy that's being built for me. You know, all these different sounds just continue to inspire me.

Ron Klemm 27:01
If we for some reason, the music was taken away, or or if there wasn't an opportunity to play. What else? What would you do? What other passions do you have?

Charles Metz 27:14
Well, I have thought about that. And I don't like to think about that, because I would think in some ways my life was over. Because that's how much music means to me. But I suppose I have a friend that was a very accomplished pianist, studied to Juilliard, etc. And then he had a massive stroke about four years ago, and he lost all control of his right side. But he was very much depressed. But he is now playing the piano and performing with his left hand alone and doing an amazing job. So he's an inspiration for me. So and he's also teaching and I think if something happened to me that I couldn't play, I think teaching would be something that I would gravitate towards. Well,

Ron Klemm 28:00
Thanks for spending time with us. Pleasure. That's Charles Metz, along with Dennis Sparger, I'm Ron Klemm, and this is Bach Talk.

The final moments of the first movement from Bach's Brandenburg Concerto Number 5, from a concert in the 2022 Bach Festival in St. Louis. The box society orchestra was conducted by Dennis Sparger, the harpsichordist, our very special guest today Dr. Charles Metz. Be sure to check out Charlie's recording on that circa 1590 virginal we talked about earlier. It's called William Tisdale music for Virginal on Navona Records available wherever you get your music, and watch for the release of his latest project, a collection of Scarlatti Sonatas, played on a period square fortepiano yet another example of the fascinating world of musical discovery that is Dr. Charles Metz.

About Episode 2

Get ready for another episode of Bach Talk as we dive deeper into the world of The Bach Society of Saint Louis with Music Director and Conductor A. Dennis Sparger. In this second installment of 'Meet the Maestro', we uncover more about the man behind the music and his remarkable journey. He also shares insights into the importance of teamwork, respect for volunteers and the power of Bach's music in uplifting and transforming people's lives. The episode also touches on Dr. William B. Heyne, the founder of The Bach Society, and how Dennis continues to carry on the legacy of Bach's music.

Episode Transcript

Ron Klemm 00:00
This is Bach Talk. I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the World to Come. The heart of the credo, I believe, as expressed in the music of Johann Sebastian Bach. You're hearing The Bach Society of Saint Louis in a performance of Bach's Mass in B minor, conducted by Dr. A Dennis Sparger. Hello, I'm Ron Klemm. Welcome to Bach Talk. Dennis Sparger. became the music director and conductor of The Bach Society of Saint Louis in 1986. He recently surpassed founder Dr. William Heyne as the longest-tenured conductor in The Bach Society's 82-year history. Maestro Sparger has conducted more than 195 performances with a Bach Society, which means that before the current season concludes, he will have reached the 200th performance plateau. The number of singers that Dennis has led over the years can be measured in the 1000s and the cumulative audience that he has impacted with The Bach Society alone would fill st Louis's Busch Stadium twice. Last time on Bach Talk, we began this series of podcasts with the first part of our extended conversation with the maestro from the Sparger's breakfast room, we chatted about a bevy of topics. We learned all about Dennis's upbringing in Harvey, Illinois, just south of Chicago, about his first recollections of music at home, his musical development from starting on the accordion, to learning the piano, then the double bass and cello. And we heard about his side gigs too playing jazz around town in the evenings while pursuing his bachelor's degree at Eastern Illinois University. Today, we want to pick up where we left that conversation as a promising young conductor began to see his life's course unfold. One, which turned out to be his mother's plan all along.

Dennis Sparger 02:41
As I was wrapping up my senior year, I was a little ahead of the game because I was taking extra courses and I was able to get a little bit of a head start into a master's degree. And I was offered a position as a graduate assistant. So I would get free tuition and a very minor stipend. And by then I had a church choir. And I had a couple of bars where I played piano on weekends and was paid okay, and, and by that time I was married and had our little girl Cindy. And I thought if ever I'm going to get a master's degree, this is the time to do it. So we stayed on. And by that time we were living in student housing for married students. It was an area we called fertile acres. That's but it was a place to be a nice place to be and university supported. So the rent wasn't terribly high. Um, and during that summer when I was taking classes, another fellow came in from Germany. He was an American who had worked in Germany and played in studio bands, radio bands, playing really highly sophisticated jazz. And he was back at Eastern I think picking up a master's degree then. So we played what then used to be called jam sessions. I don't know what they call them. Now the players would just get together and we'd have like a common repertoire and we just played together and he played Valve Trombone, really well. And valve trombone, yeah. Wow. Yeah. And my my jazz piano playing by that time was fair. I got through. Well, I finished my master's degree and started looking for jobs and kept turning them down. And late in August, as Helene was going crazy thinking, will he ever get a job? An offer came from Urbana High School. So I took that job and it turned out to be a wonderful first-year position for me. Now the students, many were children of professors at University of Illinois, were so many of them were so gifted and talented. A couple of them had perfect pitch. Several played piano really well. And we just had a great year, but at the end of the Your I could see that a lot of wonderful seniors were leaving. And the counselors were advising students to take a fifth solid instead of choir. And I thought I can see where this is going. Well, I should mention here that every once in a while, in the mornings when I'd have my break, I'd go to the teacher's lounge and have a cup of coffee, with Igor Stravinsky's daughter-in-law.

Ron Klemm 05:23
Really?

Dennis Sparger 05:24
Yes, by then I was young and stupid and hardly knew that it was a big deal. It was a big deal. And and I should have used that you have that leverage to meet the master himself.

Ron Klemm 05:37
Wow.

Dennis Sparger 05:37
But there were wonderful times. This fellow who played valve trombone, by that time, had moved to Belleville. It was working in the junior college at that time, it was Belleville Junior College, and it but he was starting to grow and had a little bit of a music department built by one. And he wanted a choral director. He was looking for a choral director that could play jazz piano and drink beer.

Ron Klemm 06:04
For what reason? Who knows.

Dennis Sparger 06:07
But he had interviewed people from like the very fine universities. And he remembered me so he gave the call and we came down, took a look had a beer heavier, and it was about a 50% pay increase. And in addition to teaching, it offered summer school to teach and an evening overload class, and I thought, you know, you're I have a wife and a child, I have people to support and this is an opportunity, you know, to keep growing and, and helping my family at the same time. So we thought we'll come here for two years and then move on.

Ron Klemm 06:43
Well, I know that feeling so be you didn't know anything really about Belleville or the St. Louis area necessarily.

Dennis Sparger 06:49
I had a college roommate who was from Belleville and he had mentioned you know, what a very nice place it was to live. And it was not too unlike Harvey in South Chicago. Hardworking people that were generally pretty pleasant.

Ron Klemm 07:39
The concluding chorale from Der Geist Hilft, a double chorus motet by Johann Sebastian Bach, The Bach Society of Saint Louis in concert conducted by Dennis Sparger. More of our conversation with Maestro Sparger straight ahead. I'm Ron Klemm, and this is Bach Talk.

Melissa Payton 08:02
Hi there. I'm Melissa Payton, Executive Director of The Bach Society of St. Louis. Did you know that The Bach Society is St. Louis's oldest continuous Choral Society? For decades, The Bach Society of St. Louis has been the heartbeat of musical excellence, captivating audiences with unforgettable performances. Led by visionary music director and conductor A. Denis Sparger. The Bach Society Chorus and Orchestra breathe new life into each composition, infusing it with emotion and depth. We're committed to providing musical experiences and the tradition of Johann Sebastian Bach, and there's something for everyone to enjoy for Upcoming Events, digital offerings, and to stay up to date on all things Bach. Visit us at bachsociety.org.

Ron Klemm 08:58
As our conversation with Bach Society music director and conductor Dennis Sparger continues, we find the Spargers planting roots in the Greater St. Louis area, as Dennis was now teaching in a burgeoning junior college in Belleville, Illinois.

Dennis Sparger 09:14
So I started that first year with a college by I, you know, had the choir had a smaller group of singers and taught piano, taught voice, taught music appreciation, the works, the works, and met Sam Andrea who then later founded Andrea's restaurant who has a wonderful alto sax player, and played in his quartet for a while, started working in other clubs and restaurants around. And the years started going by. By the time I got to my fourth year, I had achieved tenure already and I thought, well, now I'm in a position where they can't fire me, and that's a good place to be. And I was just a few years away from qualifying for a sabbatical, and I knew that I had wanted to start a doctorate. So the way I did it was I started telling people, I'm going to get a doctorate. I'm going to go to the University of Illinois and get a doctor's degree in music. And I thought by telling everyone, I thought I sure better do this. See, you know, so I took the entrance exams, got approved, started taking the few classes they thought I needed. And meantime, I started going to some summer sessions there. Eventually, my turn came up for a sabbatical in those days, they provided half pay to go to school for a full year. And we thought, well, we can make this work. Well, we moved up. By that time, we'd bought a house, we rented our house out move to Urbana, started going to school, but by December, I realized this money is getting rather thin. With only half pay because the expenses didn't cut in half you know at all. So I found an agent and picked up a job playing at the Champaign Holiday and five nights a week. In those days, I think for about $200 a week.

Ron Klemm 11:05
While, while you're working on your doctorate?

Dennis Sparger 11:09
Yes.

Ron Klemm 11:09
Holy smokes.

Dennis Sparger 11:10
Yes. Yeah. So I get home at two or three in the morning.

Ron Klemm 11:13
No wonder you're a night owl.

Dennis Sparger 11:16
Not anymore, and be in class by nine the next morning. And, yeah, it was a real struggle. But I pushed my way through, took my final exams at the end of the year, and then started working on a paper, well came back to the college. And I realized, with all of this big music, I've been learning of your major works, especially and works for chorus and orchestra, I needed to start getting some experience in that area. Because my goal even then was to get a university job. So I talked to my dean about starting a Community Chorus. And, you know, my department head was all for it. The dean was all for it. The president of the college decided, yes, this would be great. So we started what was called the Belleville Area College Community Chorus. And we grew rather quickly with a lot of wonderful people, you know, from the adult world, and you know, some of my college students as well, and started doing a concerts, selling tickets, raising money, paying the orchestra hiring soloists, and all of this had to be run through the college. So we were thinking about how can we make this work a little more smoothly. So we petitioned to see if we could amicably divorce and that worked out very well, that we became an independent, you know 501c3 organization, became incorporated. We had people who could run the business side up quite well. And we, by that time to change the name to Masterworks Chorale, to kind of reflect the quality of music and performance that we were giving. And during the 80s and early 90s, especially Masterworks Chorale was performing at a very high level that compared you know, to the best in St. Louis. We just had great people that were coming in that had good musical skills. So that's how that happened.

Ron Klemm 13:13
And that's how we met I mean, it when in talking about the Masterworks Choral before you were asked to come to The Bach Society, well do you remember those days while that happened?

Dennis Sparger 13:25
Yes, I do. But the year before that masterworks said, I realized we needed to increase our publicity. Already the Belleville News Democrat was writing a nice little articles about us and that but we needed more help. So Sandy Wagner, Steve Bloomer, and I went to visit the publisher of the paper, who at that time was Darwin Wile and we sat down and talk to him. We did the whole spiel about here's who we are, here's what we do. Here's what's happening with community, here's what we need, here's the benefit. And we need some help, right? So he asked, well, what kind of help do you need from me? And I said, we need some help with advertising. He thought for a moment he said, Okay, we'll give you 500 column inches per year. Now, that's huge.

Ron Klemm 14:15
That's a lot.

Dennis Sparger 14:16
That means like quarter-page, half-page ads for each concert. Yeah. So in those days, people read newspapers. Yes. Yeah. If you live it on the side of the river, we're in Illinois, by the way, yeah. You bought the Belleville News Democrat and you see this. So we had these wonderful feature articles coming out by Roger Sleater. They would explain everything about a concert. And then these wonderful ads show up in the paper, no reviews. Thankfully, we had nothing we had to live down. And then we got up ready to leave thanked him profusely. And and Darwin said, Well, what else can we do? And we thought, well, we're thinking thinking, and we thought well with, we'd like to start a children's choir. And he says great, because I would like to write to our owners, which I think at that time was capital something or other and get a grant that would serve my community. So we worked out this deal that he would provide $5,000 If we could raise $5,000 to start a children's choir. So we started in the first year, I think we had about 60 singers come in. And these were five of the most wonderful years. I think I've ever lived that because anything you could teach, children could learn, right?

Ron Klemm 15:42
They were sponges.

Dennis Sparger 15:43
Well, yeah, they were. Yeah. So they were singing Bach and Handel and personal and Vaughn Williams and Benjamin Britten. And some of the difficulties. Well, last year, we did a piece by Malcolm Williamson with a Bach Society that we did with children's chorus, with orchestra. It's just amazing. But the next year, I had a call and was asked to interview for The Bach Society. Now by that time, Masterworks Chorale had been hiring orchestra players largely from St. Louis. And our orchestra contractor, that is the person who engages all the players distributes the music collecting all of this was Jan Parks, and she was also on the board of The Bach Society. And they were in the process of going through a change. And she suggested that they interview me and of course, no one in The Bach Society on the board had ever heard of me, or Masterworks Chorale, and were a little reluctant. But they agreed to do this. So I came in, and I just told them what I thought and they liked it. And they made me an offer. And I thought, well, I'll do this for a year. So I refused to take any payment until the end of the year because I didn't want it worked into my budget. And that's how it started. And that was 1986, 37 years ago, I never dreamed I would stay this long or they would want me this long. But it has been just a wonderful, wonderful journey. All the incredible people that I've met during that period of time, the amazing music that we've performed the people in the audience who've been so gracious with their donations and supporting you know, we now have an endowment to help the organization survive for long after I'm gone. So it's been a great journey.

Ron Klemm 18:35
One of virtually every choral music lovers favorites. Salvation is Created by Pavel Chesnokov, the Bach Society of St. Louis from a concert in 2011 conducted by Dennis Sparger. That's right. The Bach Society doesn't limit itself solely to the music of Bach, but rather presents music in the spirit and tradition of the master. That tradition continues today. And so does our conversation with Maestro Sparger straight ahead. I'm Ron Klemm. And this is Bach Talk.

Melissa Payton 19:12
Hi there, Melissa here again. I want to take a moment to tell you about The Bach Society's next concert for the St. Louis area led by music director and conductor A. Dennis Sparger. And featuring The Bach Society Chorus and Orchestra, we'll present Eternal Light. This will be an emotional journey like no other, highlighting Howard Goodall's masterpiece, Eternal Light: A Requiem. This concert will also showcase choral favorites by renowned composers, including Ola Gjeilo, Jean Sibelius, and Olaf Christiansen. If you're in the St. Louis area or you plan to be please join us on Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 3 p.m. at the First Presbyterian Church of Kirkwood, it promises to be an unforgettable celebration of music and remembrance. Tickets are on sale now at Bachsociety.org/concerts. We hope to see you there. And now, let's get back to Bach Talk.

Ron Klemm 20:17
You talked about your jazz background at length. And now with your incredible tenure with the Bach Society. I wonder if there's any way to tie those together? How do you see the experiences that you had as a young man and as growing in into music and as an educator and working in all these, these jazz contexts? And now, The Bach Society? How do they come together?

Dennis Sparger 20:47
Well, well, first, I should I should mention, when I started working for The Bach Society, I gave up playing on weekends, I thought I just can't keep all of this going. So that's the one thing that set aside, I guess the, you know, playing in a jazz group, because quite often I played in trios and quartets. You had to listen to one another, respond to one another, work as a team and know that you're not it, you're part of what the it is. And I think that helps us a conductor realizing it's not about me, it's about us. And not just the us of the performers, but us of the audience is well, all of that comes together. The church choir work, you know, they did long ago, made me think, or I guess he gave me the background of knowing you're working with volunteers to a large extent people are giving up valuable time,

Ron Klemm 21:41
It's a sacrifice,

Dennis Sparger 21:42
A sacrifice on their part to be in you have to respect that right, appreciate it, and feed them in a sense of so they're getting something important out of it. So they're getting a spiritual message from the music, we perform an emotional lift, a release from their daily lives and the troubles they have. I remember one of our singers, I probably shouldn't mention his name. He buried his father and came to rehearsal that evening.

Ron Klemm 22:17
I can't imagine it that no, can't imagine it.

Dennis Sparger 22:19
It, it almost brings me to tears to to mention it. But many of our singers are not unlike this, that they're going through personal tragedies of or problems of one sort or another, and crises, and they come to rehearsal, and their lives are uplifted and improved for that time together. Most people come into rehearsal, a little tired.

Ron Klemm 22:44
You bet.

Dennis Sparger 22:45
And by the time they leave, there's a lift in their stuff. And something and many people have told me that they can't go home and go to sleep. They're still up for a while, you know, kind of wired from the excitement of making great music

Ron Klemm 22:57
It's rejuvenating.

Dennis Sparger 22:59
That's a great word. It really is.

Ron Klemm 23:02
Did you, Dr. William Heyne started The Bach Society back in the just when World War Two was looming? Did you ever meet him?

Dennis Sparger 23:13
Yes.

Ron Klemm 23:14
Tell me about that. Tell me what he what your impression of him was what he said to you, perhaps? And what's your recollection of those that time?

Dennis Sparger 23:25
Well, Dr. Heyne was very revered. You know, people just loved him. And of course, he did great things with The Bach Society and had incredible programs that he gave it, you know, they would go into that time to Kiel Opera House now it's called Stiefel, 3500 seats, I think, in those days, and they would have to give two or three performances of events, you know, filling it. But of course, at that time, he was one of maybe just too big choruses in town. Now we have over 40 independent choruses. So audiences are spread a little more thin. Well, anyway, getting back to Dr. Heyne. He was not, he wasn't in good enough health that he could come to concerts to hear them. So I would send him recordings of what we did. And then he would write a little critique to send back to me.

Ron Klemm 24:19
This I can't wait to hear.

Dennis Sparger 24:21
But they all were very positive and very supportive. And he was just so happy that we were doing by Bach, Bach again had become our focus of the organization. It it's the legacy of The Bach Society. Its its history. Its its future. This was so important. And I was having such a wonderful time doing this great and still do, doing this great music. On a few occasions, I went to visit him in his home. He and Vera we're in we're still alive. And this was not long after the first year that I went to see him, to meet him to get to seek his counsel sure on where I should be going with this organization. And I sat down one of the first thing he said to me is, I understand Mrs. Smith is no longer singing with us. I thought, uh no, I did something wrong. I don't recall if her name was Smith or not.

Ron Klemm 25:24
No, no. If your name is Smith. We're not talking about you.

Dennis Sparger 25:29
Mrs. S. And I said, well, well, yes, that happened. I said, you know, I had to audition all the singers because I needed to hear what their voices were like. And she finished and I said, I said, okay, I'd love to have you back as a soprano two. And Mrs. S responded, and she said soprano two, I've always been a soprano one and she left. And he said, and when I heard that, I said, hurray for Sparger. I've been trying to get rid of her for years and years. And we became friends.

Ron Klemm 26:04
That's good. If he were here today, if he were sitting right here, what would he what would he say to you? What do you think he would say to you, or what would you like him to say about you?

Dennis Sparger 26:19
I would like him to say bravo Sparger as he did that day, because I've done I think the best that could be done in keeping the music of Bach in front of the St. Louis people. There is something powerful, uplifting, spiritual, artistic, in the musical Bach that you just don't get anywhere else. It truly is the best. And I think he would have a deep, deep appreciation of them. I recently heard from his grandson. He's living in Grand Rapids. And again, he was so delighted that we continue to do the music his grandfather set in front of us.

Ron Klemm 27:44
Just the final moments of Bach's Mass in B minor, the Dona Nobis Pacem, Grant us Peace, from a concert in 2019 by The Bach Society Chorus and Orchestra conducted by music director Dennis Sparger. In fact, all musical portions today were taken from concerts given by The Bach Society, recorded by our good friend and Grammy Award-winning recording engineer, Paul Henrich subscribe to Bach Talk wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more at Bachsociety.org.

Before we leave you today, a brief and very personal footnote. As I mentioned at the outset, Dennis and I had our conversation in the Sparger's breakfast room, a bright, comfortable place, relaxing and brimming with joy. Immediately after we turned off the mics Helene Sparger. Dennis's wife, best friend, toughest critic and loving partner for 60 years joined us. She lit up that room, just as she did every other and we enjoyed even more delightful conversation. A few months later, Helene contracted what turned out to be a brutal infection that brought about a painful month-long hospital stay, and eventually took her life. One thing I knew intuitively but didn't see fully manifested until that moment. The Bach Society is a family, singers, instrumentalists, staff and board members, sponsors supporters, audience members, friends far and near all became Spargers It was an amazing outpouring of love. The opening concert of the 2023-24 season is made possible by the Sparta family and many friends dedicated to Helene's memory. This will be a difficult season to be sure with emotions so close to the surface, but in keeping with the Bach Society's mission perfect warming music in the spirit and tradition of Johann Sebastian Bach will most certainly provide the greatest comfort of all.

About Episode 1

In this debut episode of Bach Talk, host Ron Klemm sits down with The Bach Society of Saint Louis Music Director and Conductor A. Dennis Sparger. They discuss the formative moments that led Dennis to pursue a life of music from his mother singing to his introduction to the accordion. Join us to hear about the memories, music and influences that make up Maestro Sparger.

Episode Transcript

Ron Klemm 0:00
This is Bach Talk

the Sanctus from the Mass in B minor by Johann Sebastian Bach.

You're hearing the renowned Bach Society of Saint Louis in concert conducted by music director Dr. A. Dennis Sparger.

Hello, I'm Ron Klemm. Welcome to the first in our series of monthly conversations with the people who make music like this come alive. The Sanctus from Bach's B minor was the first piece Maestro Sparger conducted with a Bach Society back in 1986. He is the longest tenured conductor in the Bach Society's 80 plus year history. So today, appropriately as we begin this series, let's meet the maestro, we sat down in the Sparger's beautiful bright breakfast room, enjoyed a cup of coffee and an extended chat. Full disclosure, Dennis and I have been friends for a very long time. But one fact that took us both by surprise when we first uncovered it, we were born and grew up less than 10 miles from each other in what was then the quiet southern suburbs of Chicago. That meant that we shared many of the same experiences. And so I started our conversation by asking him to describe life, as he remembered it. As a youngster in Harvey, Illinois.

Dennis Sparger 1:52
What I remember is that it was just a wonderful place for a child to grow up. We had such complete freedom in our area, you know, we could get on our bikes, and just ride the complete town. I have a couple of friends and I might drive up into a forest preserve and bring a little lunch with us. And there was no sense of fear that anything could happen to us. Our parents didn't worry. We didn't lock our doors, car doors were left unlocked. So it really was quite wonderful place to grow up. My father was a steel worker. You know, many people in the south side of Chicago, are steel workers. And those were union jobs. Thank goodness, you know, so they paid well enough that a man was able to provide for his family, and in his wife was able to stay home and take care of the family. I'm not sure they all did that by choice. But that's kind of how it turned out for many. You know, so I had a mother that was home taking care of us as we live just a quarter of a block away from the great schools. So we could walk back and forth come home for lunch, watch a little TV, because that was brand new of those days. And then you know, go back for the second half of the school.

Ron Klemm 3:14
What do you remember about your first contact with music? How did you first get involved with music? Or when did music begin to play a part of your life?

Dennis Sparger 3:24
From the beginning my mother was a singer. And she and her sister had done some singing on the radio, untrained. But strange thing I noticed later on in life after I'd studied voice and gotten college degrees. And I would hear my mother sing when she was in her 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and she did things correctly. You know,

Ron Klemm 3:49
What does that mean?

Dennis Sparger 3:50
Well, the voice was free and open. It wasn't encumbered by tensions anywhere. She pronounced things well. So she sang as if she had voice lessons. And she loved to sing and dance. And when I was a child, you know, I would hear my mother and sister you know washing dishes drying and, and singing duets in harmony. So there was always a part of my background. And of course, so I sang in the church children's choir that my mother directed. In fact, I think I have a photo somewhere of us little ones in our white robes and red bows. So that was a part of it all. in grade school. We didn't have much music other than the classroom teacher, you know, having us open up a song book and we all would sing and so I think all of the children in each class had a chance to sing. When I was in eighth grade we finally got a music teacher. But anyway, you know that was that you know we singing a church. Sunday school class always began with all age levels in the same room singing like gospel songs and spirituals and, and hymns. So we got involved in singing through that way before we go to our individual classes for study.

Ron Klemm 5:11
Who do you remember of those early days that that that had a great impact on you that you still remember today?

Dennis Sparger 5:20
Well, probably my music teacher made the big biggest difference. By the time I was eight, mother decided she wanted a trained musician in the family. So it wasn't like I had a choice it was you're going to learn to play music?

Ron Klemm 5:36
Really?

Dennis Sparger 5:36
Yes.

Ron Klemm 5:37
Did she push you in any way? Did you feel? Did you feel pressure in that sense? It's okay.

Dennis Sparger 5:43
No, in those days, you know, you you did what your parents told you to do. There's no pressure. You just did it. But we were well enough off that we didn't have to worry about food or having a roof over our heads or, or having clothes. Although, you know, we didn't buy the newest clothes at all. We we had a few hand me downs. So we couldn't afford a piano in our house. But in South Chicago, the instrument of choice was the accordion.

Ron Klemm 6:17
Why do you look at me when you say that?

Dennis Sparger 6:19
Most people laugh or make fun of people who play the accordion.

Ron Klemm 6:23
Well, I tell you a story because my twin sisters, who are a little younger than me. We're the bee's knees. In Hammond, Indiana when when they had to take accordion lessons, and everybody wanted a picture of these twins playing the accordion.

Dennis Sparger 6:39
You know, did they go to Rumba brothers?

Ron Klemm 6:42
Yes, yes, absolutely.

Dennis Sparger 6:44
Yeah. Well, A.J. Rumba was my teacher.

Ron Klemm 6:47
Oh my God.

Dennis Sparger 6:48
Now that now the beauty of the accordion for for the working class was that you sign up for six beginners lessons, right. And they and they loan you, you know, you don't rent they loan you a small accordion, that doesn't have too many keys, and we'll all the buttons on the left side there only 12 buttons to rows of six. So you're not going to get too lost. And that amount of time. And at the end of six weeks, you've done well enough that you can turn that in. And then you rent a larger instrument that has like 48 buttons instead of 12. And a little bit longer keyboard, and then you start paying for your lessons and you start growing. And a few years later, you're ready to buy a used instrument that's a little bit bigger yet. And after another a couple of years, if you're doing really well, you're ready to buy a really fine instrument. So that's kind of how I progressed through it. But my teacher, Mr. Rumba, was very wise, a Hungarian trained musician, he and his other brothers, you know, moved to South Chicago and started this music school. He knew that my mother was the key to all of this. So he would assign me a piece that my mother wanted to hear and assign a piece that was good for my musical growth. So every day of the week, Mother would sit with me and listen to the piece that she wanted to hear and then suffer through the one I really had to practice. But this kept things motivated. Now, the downside of this was that every day after school, I'd have to come home and practice for half an hour. A year later, 45 minutes, a year later an hour eventually was an hour and a half. So I didn't get to go play ball with all the kids after school. So by the time I got there, you know the game was ending. So that was the sacrifice that had to be done.

Ron Klemm 8:45
We're talking to Myron Floren or I'm sorry to Dennis Sparger, I'm Ron Klemm, and this is Bach Talk.

When did the accordion become ancillary to other things in your musical life? When When did you put that away and start doing other things?

Dennis Sparger 9:19
Ah, well, I must have been it at least in the sixth grade by then, that my teacher began working on the harmonization of a melody. You know, so you could look at music they would have the melody only. And chord symbols above the chord symbols like C seven, B flat minor would tell you what to do with the left hand in finding from the various rows, like six rows of God, I don't know how many all to find that and in the right hand, how to find the harmony to fill out the melody.

Ron Klemm 9:57
Maybe we should do a little bit of definition here man at the right hand, we had a keyboard, keyboard, keyboard. And so you'd play that on a on a vertical vertical rather than horizontal. But the left hand those buttons were actually chords of different kinds, we would play multiple notes at once, right?

Dennis Sparger 10:14
Right, right, the first two rows would be bass notes. And then as you go back to the next four rows, you'd have a major chord, A minor chord, a dominant seventh chord, and a diminished chord. And all of these are different qualities of harmony. So you learn where all of that is. But then you also had to learn on the right hand, the keyboard hand of how to fill in the harmonies, to enriching the sound of the melody. And I think by the end of the sixth grade, he said, Okay, it's time for you to play in a band. Oh, we didn't mention, there was an accordion band at the Rumba music school. And this would be like 30 or 40 Kids, all sitting in chairs with music stands, and we'd play our individual melodic notes. So we learned how to keep time with a conductor doing all of this. Well, anyway, at least by the seventh grade, he wanted me playing in a small band. So I assembled a few other boys that were from our grade school where we could get together. So I had a tenor sax and a drummer. And we'd meet in our basement and practice, we buy these little books that would have the swing songs, the kinds of things that people dance through. By the time I was in high school, I was picked up by a quartet that needed a fourth player. And almost every weekend, we were playing for a wedding reception or teenage dance or an adult dance. So I started earning my way through high school already. By my second year in high school, I was invited to play in a big band, our high school had a 13 piece dance band that played a one and a half hour dance after every home football and basketball game.

Ron Klemm 11:59
This is Thornton high school, high school, Harvey, Illinois.

Dennis Sparger 12:02
Yeah. And we all were paid to do this. Now $7 Doesn't seem like Oh. But I guess it would be like it was $70 or more in today's money. And we were able to go out afterwards and have pizza and sodas with a girlfriend. And the next night, you could go to a movie and out for pizza and we ate a lot of pizza. And of course in Chicago pizza was really good. So it really was a really nice opportunity by the end of that first year. And of course, you know, playing out accordion with a big band a little weird. But by that time, I had a professional model accordion, and it could plug into an amplifier, this would plug into the school system, play through the entire gymnasium, blow them out of the water. Yes, yeah. So the end of the end of end of that second year, or my first year with the band, they said, you know, Denny, we're going to have a piano player next year. And I thought, I don't want to lose this job. So I told my dad, he said, Okay, we'll get a piano. So we went out and found an old upright piano that someone didn't want, and we got it carried into the basement. And he also bought a tuning hammer. And he said, Okay, now you've been taking lessons to the piano. Ah, well, I tuned it to perfect fifths, which meant in the key of C, it played very nicely. Oh, sure. But a lot of swing music is in B flat or E flat, or it sounded terrible. So we eventually had to get a real tuner to come in and do it. But I started taking piano lessons next. And I had a wonderful teacher in Chicago Heights who played in the orchestra at WGN. And in those days, you know, radio stations had an orchestra. They'd play live, believe it or not.

Ron Klemm 13:52
They had live music because they didn't have tape. Yeah, was all right.

Dennis Sparger 13:56
So these teachers in Chicago Heights were all wonderful teachers and players. So I got a pretty good start and realized that I could major in piano when I went to college.

Ron Klemm 14:20
So now, let's talk about the moving now from the accordion into the piano and eventually into moving into this direction that your mother had earmarked for you into the profession of music. How did that give us an idea of how that all transpired?

Dennis Sparger 14:38
Oh, well, well, as it turned out, I was ambidextrous. I could play the accordion and the piano.

Ron Klemm 14:43
Well, at the same time, you were learning the accordion, you had the right hand down.

Dennis Sparger 14:47
My right hand was down so you know the left hand edge and to try to catch up which it has never done. Well in high school, you know, I sang in the high school choir. I played double bass in the high school orchestra. In my third and fourth years, I had a full year for credit of music theory. And the next year, a full year for credit of music history.

Ron Klemm 15:11
Wow.

Dennis Sparger 15:11
So, you know what a wonderful background you're ahead of most, you know, in so many schools No, you don't get any music at all, no. Or you're lucky if you can participate in one, but not in two so and wonderful teachers and, you know, got a really good background. Now, no one in our family had gone to college. Or hardly high school, you know, my father had to leave school in the eighth grade to work in the brickyards when his father was injured and couldn't work anymore. My mother went to high school for three days. And because other kids laughed at her because she was wearing homemade clothes, she just couldn't take it anymore. So she dropped out and started getting into housecleaning to, to get by. A few of the guys that I played with in small bands when they left high school, they were older than me, they went to Eastern Illinois University. So that's the only school I was aware of. So that will I guess that's where I'm going. And, and I thought I probably would wind up being a teacher. So I applied for a teacher scholarship. And in the early 60s, there was a great need for teachers, all kinds of teachers in Illinois. So the state government provided scholarships for anyone who was going to major in education. So I majored in music education, got a wonderful scholarship, and my tuition was like $60 a year. Today, we just complain about, oh, we need teachers, we don't do anything to help it happen. But so that's how I wound up it Eastern. It was a very small school. In those days, I think the student population was about 1200. And it's been well over 10,000 years since. In fact, when I was there, the library was so far south, no one went there. And now it's well north of center. But almost every teacher I had was a PhD. It was like, you know, the Harvard of the Midwest, you know, all these wonderful faculty members that I think loved being in this small, rural environment. So I had, you know, wonderful music teachers of great piano teacher, wonderful choral director.

Ron Klemm 17:22
Let's get specific about that. Who are the ones that stick out for you that had a that had a major influence in your life?

Dennis Sparger 17:29
Oh, well, well, Mr. Satterthwaite, in high school was my history teacher. And he just cultivated a love of history. And while I'm not a musicologist, you know, I love digging into information about the past. So, you know, learning more about the 18th century in the 17th century, and feeling like I have a grasp of this, and I think he kind of helped develop that. My choral director, Mr. Armbruster, you know, we didn't know their first names.

Ron Klemm 17:59
No, no.

Dennis Sparger 18:00
We wouldn't have dreamed of using them. He just gave some quality music and in high school singing Chesnokov salvation is created in English, of course, and hearing that rich eight part harmony, and that Russian liturgical music just was so inspiring. And our orchestra director, Mr. Chambers, you know, we play you know, fine music. You know, we had Christmas concerts, where all the musicians who were involved in this huge gymnasium of putting on Christmas concerts, all of these things were so effective. But in college, John Mahard was the choral director, he had the most beautiful hands for conducting. I can't even come close to the expressiveness of how he could move his hands. He was from Ohio, and went to Capitol University there, and I must have had a great background himself. And, and he just shared all of this wonderful music with us. My piano teacher was Alan Allovall. And I think he recognized that would never be a great pianist. But his teaching could help me become a much better musician, and taught me much about phrasing of seeing a longer line to the music rather than just one measure at a time. And I could also talk about politics, which was fun in those days, when we had our first son. I named him after John and Ellen, these two important teachers in my life. That's another beautiful thing about Eastern Illinois University in those days, is that it was small enough that they all music students had to participate in everything, you know, so although I wasn't really geared up for playing, you know, in the orchestra, you know, I wanted to focus on choral music. I had to sing in a couple of the choirs and I had to play in the orchestra. We had to take strings class so by the second year they said, Okay, you're gonna play cello and double bass. We can get another bass player we need a cellist. So I eventually worked my way up to the second position. Because whenever I made a mistake sitting in these back rows, I would look behind me and the conductor. Dr. Earl Boyd, wouldn't you think, Oh, God, he must know what he's doing. He couldn't really hear these mistakes. So he moved me forward. I never became terribly good at Sharla but I enjoyed playing and playing something like Barber's Adagio for Strings when it for a young person well, and Howard Hansen's Symphony Number two the romantic

Ron Klemm 20:42
Wow

Dennis Sparger 20:43
Yeah, well, you know, so really remember those things. I remember doing the Fauré Requiem with the choir. And we only rehearsed parts of a different movements at different times as a singer resident as a singer as a singer. And because of timing, I don't know what was going on. I never heard it covered a cover until we performed. So I learned to not do that. But it was a great experience.

Ron Klemm 21:36
Just a sampling of the Agnus Dei, from the Requiem by Gabriele Fauré from a concert in 2016, at the Cathedral Basilica of St. Louis, the Bach Society Chorus and Orchestra conducted by music director, Dennis Sparger. We're in the middle of an extended conversation with Maestro Sparger. Next time, we'll pick up where we left off. We'll learn much more about the choral groups that he founded and established about his becoming the sixth music director in The Bach Society storied history and about his memorable meetings with Bach Society founder, Dr. William Heyne.

Dennis Sparger 22:14
Dr. Heyne was very revered people just loved him. On a few occasions, I went to visit him in his home, to meet them to get to seek his council sure on where I should be going with this organization.

Ron Klemm 22:27
If he were here today, what would he say to you?

We'll hear the answer next time on Bach Talk. Musical portions provided by Giulio Fazio, by pianist Sondra Geary, and by The Bach Society Chorus and Orchestra, captured in concert by Grammy Award winning recording engineer Paul Hennerich. I'm Ron Clem Bach talk is a trademark of the Bach Society of St. Louis. Subscribe to Bach talk wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more at bachsociety.org.

Episode Transcript

Ron Klemm (0:05)
The majestic music of Bach

Ron Klemm (0:12)
the renowned Bach Society of St Louis.

Ron Klemm (0:30)
The gripping opening, the curio from the monumental Mass in B minor, by Johann Sebastian Bach.

Ron Klemm (0:39)
It was the first masterwork ever to be performed by The Bach Society of Saint Louis. More than 80 years later, The Bach Society remains an iconic performing arts organization.

Ron Klemm (1:03)
Dedicated to the great works of Bach and all who followed The Bach Society, he continues this incredible legacy today, performing music designed to inspire the human spirit.

Ron Klemm (1:16)
Now, The Bach Society introduces a monthly podcast to better tell its story. I'm Ron Klemm, and I'll take you behind the scenes. In upcoming episodes, we'll learn much more about Bach and his music. And I will introduce you to some of the people who breathe life into this amazing music.

A. Dennis Sparger (1:40)
There's something powerful, uplifting, spiritual, artistic, in the musical Bach that you just don't get anywhere else. It truly is the best.

Ron Klemm (1:55)
That's Dennis Sparger, music director and conductor of The Bach Society. In the coming weeks, we'll learn much more about Maestro Sparger, including some surprising things he learned early in his career.

Dennis Sparger (2:07)
I guess, you know, playing in a jazz group, because quite often I played in trios and quartets. You had to listen to one another, respond to one another work as a team. And know that you're not it. You're part of what the it is. And I think that helps us a conductor realizing it's not about me, it's about us. And not just the us of the performers, but us of the audience is well.

Ron Klemm (2:36)
Dennis and I will talk with guest artists too. We'll find out all about them, including what motivates them

Michelle Kennedy (2:42)
To reclaim our sense of joy every day,

Ron Klemm (2:45)
Like soprano Michelle Kennedy.

Michelle Kennedy (2:47)
Not just an act of empowerment, but an act of reclamation of what it means to be alive. What it means to do this amazing art form to present it to be on the stage to share it with our audiences. It's it's a privilege, it's an honor, and I always do well to just have a smile. And remember why I love it so much.

Stephen Morscheck (3:16)
My voice teacher at Wheaton College assigned to me for my senior recital, one of Bach's great solo cantatas for the bass voice, Cantata 82, Ich habe genug.

Ron Klemm (3:30)
That's bass baritone, Stephen Morscheck.

Stephen Morscheck (3:33)
And I loved the piece. And apparently, my teacher thought that it really fit me like a glove because he said to my mother, something to this effect that he's heard many people sing Bach, but your son sings Bach. And he never actually said that to me. That was my introduction to Bach.

Josefien Stoppelenburg (4:04)
What's so wonderful about groups like the Saint Louis Bach Society.

Ron Klemm (4:08)
Dutch soprano, and guest artist Josefien Stoppelenburg.

Josefien Stoppelenburg (4:12)
I think choral singing is just one of the most magical things on the planet, just people singing together. Actually, I remember during the pandemic, I would have these dreams of just people around me singing. I think I just missed that a lot. And you know, every sort of people on the planet have sung as far as we know, it's just such a deep human thing. And there is really some magic to it, especially when you hear it life. Recordings are fantastic, but a life experience with singers around you. I think it resets your monocular structure in some way. It just does something to your body, to hear that.

Ron Klemm (5:07)
From conductors and soloists to choral singers and orchestra players, music scholars, even audience members will chat with the people who make the Bach Society such a vital part of the cultural life in St. Louis.

A. Dennis Sparger (5:22)
This is Dennis Sparger, music director and conductor of the Bach Society of Saint Louis. Even though we've been around for a long time, the Bach Society is always looking for new ways to tell our story. Today, we're thrilled to launch Bach Talk, our new podcast to our buck family and well beyond. I hope you'll make it a point to subscribe and listen to every podcast as it's released. I think you'll find them enlightening and entertaining. Plus, you'll gain a new appreciation for Bach for The Bach Society of Saint Louis, and for the music-making process. Ron and I will see you again next time.

Ron Klemm (6:12)
Musical portions provided by The Bach Society Chorus and Orchestra recorded in concert. Bach Talk is a trademark of The Bucks Society of Saint Louis. Subscribe to Bach Talk wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more at Bachsociety.org