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About Episode 21

Tune in to Bach Talk as host Ron Klemm and Music Director and Conductor A. Dennis Sparger sit down with one of today’s leading music publishers. Mark Lawson, President of ECS Publishing Group, also serves on the Bach Society Board and is the current Chair-Elect of the Chorus America Board. From growing up on a farm in rural Missouri to collaborating with some of the world’s top composers, Mark shares his unique journey through the world of music publishing. Hear how he’s helped bring new music to life and his hopeful perspective on where the future of music is headed.

About Episode 20

What makes Bach’s music move us so deeply, whether we share his beliefs or not? In this episode of Bach Talk, host Ron Klemm and The Bach Society’s Music Director and Conductor A. Dennis Sparger chat with scholar Michael Marissen about how Bach’s faith shaped his powerful compositions. Michael, author of "Bach & God" and "Bach Against Modernity", challenges modern assumptions about the composer. He argues that Bach was fundamentally “pre-modern” in his outlook, with a seamless connection between his music and beliefs. Tune in for a fresh take on the emotional and spiritual depth of Bach’s work.

Transcription

A. Dennis Sparger
This is Bach Talk.

Michael Marissen
Part of the reason that Bach is so well followed now is that is this is the profundity of the joy and the profundity of the sorrow in it so that you don't even have to know what those are attached to in order to be moved by it. It's the sound of the happiness of. Joy that you're, uh, affected by. And if you happen to have a general idea what the words mean and you're a believer, then that can, that's all even better.

And if you're an, uh, unbeliever and you don't know what the words mean, um, you don't care because you just enjoy reveling in the profundity of intellect and fueling from the sounds of the music itself.

A. Dennis Sparger
If you are a regular listener to this podcast, you know that we love to introduce you to members of our St. Louis Bach family. Singers, instrumentalists, guest soloists. They all play a vital role in our mission and help tell our story. Every once in a while. We like to branch out a bit and get a different perspective.

Today is one of those times.

Hello and welcome to Bach Talk. I'm Dennis Sparger, music director and conductor of The Bach Society of Saint Louis. Michael Marissen is one of the leading Bach scholars of our day. He is Professor Emeritus of Music at Swarthmore College near Philadelphia. Dr. Marin holds a BA from Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and a PhD from Brandeis University in Massachusetts. He joined the Swarthmore faculty in 1989 and since then, has also been a visiting professor on the graduate faculties at Princeton and at the University of Pennsylvania. Dr. Marissen has taught courses on medieval, renaissance, Baroque and classical European music, and on a number of composers, including of course, JS Bach. Currently, Michael is neck deep in a huge project providing informed, annotated, historically based translations into multiple languages of all of Bach vocal and choral works. It's a much more complicated endeavor than anyone could ever imagine, and he talks about that and a bunch of other things in the moments ahead.

A few years ago, I found an article in the New York Times written by Michael Marissen. It talked about the religion and hidden theology found in of all things the Brandenburg Concertos. That piqued my interest, as you can well imagine. It led me to explore two of his books, both published by Oxford Press, "Bach & God" and his most recent "Bach Against Modernity". In both cases, Marissa's Insight did not disappoint. I shared all of this with my colleague, Bach talk host and producer Ron Klemm. Several weeks ago, Michael graciously agreed to be our guest on this episode of Bach Talk. Ron and I spoke with him from his apartment in the West Village of New York City.

Ron Klemm
The idea of your first book, which is titled "Bach & God", did you get into any trouble with anybody for not calling it God and Bach? You've got to get your priorities straight. I understand.

Michael Marissen
Well, funny you should say that because more than one person said to me, and I won't give any names here, they said they were very glad that I listed the loser second.

Ron Klemm
Well, I'm glad you didn't list any names.

Michael Marissen
Yeah, yeah. I think it's true though, that from a marketing point of view, "Bach & God" sounds better than God and Bach.

Ron Klemm
But the point is, it's a book about Bach, the composer and all of the other things that he is. It's not first of all a theological book, I presume.

Michael Marissen
No, no. It's about the ways in which the music itself sort of projects religious ideas or reflects them and promotes them and so on. I was trying to argue against the idea that music is just beautiful and proportioned, and I mean it's all those things, but I thought that there was more to what Bach was up to than what you might call just the aesthetic or just the musical.

Ron Klemm
And what background do you have that qualifies you to talk about that? Tell us a little bit about Michael Marissen and his upbringing.

Michael Marissen
Well, I never tired of telling people that I'm not German and I'm not Lutheran, but I don't think there's anything wrong with being Lutheran. I don't think there's anything wrong with being German. What turned out to be quite helpful to me is in my childhood, I grew up in a relatively conservative Protestant community that didn't integrate very well with the rest of the world, Dutch immigrants after World War II, and so there was a very, very strong parochial education and Bible, not in historical things and so on, but in the content of the Bible. And so I got a really good sense for, I had better idea than most of what the Bach vocal works, what they're about, because it's not always transparent what those librettos are referring to. And if you have a strong Protestant Bible background, that really helps a lot. So that was part of it, but it was very rare for people of my background to go to college as one of the only ones who did. And when I was in college, I took German, not because I wanted to or because I wanted to converse in German, but it was because I wanted to be able to listen to Bach church cantatas and understand what they were singing in real time. And that was the goal. So I have sort of idiosyncratic, there's basic words in German that I don't know, I'm trying to think of what the word for sidewalk is. It's not coming right to my mind, but I do know what the word for justification by faith is.

Ron Klemm
I'm sure that comes in handy in the coffee shop.

Michael Marissen
Turns out to be quite helpful if you do care about what the cantatas and the other vocal works are actually about. Not everyone does, but I did and I thought as a scholar I thought it was very important to know these things. And so I also read enormous amounts of Brother Martin. It's really nice that these wonderful editions of his complete writings, and as you know, you wrote hundreds and hundreds of books, they turned out to be quite valuable for understanding what's going on in the Bach vocal work. So that was part of what the book was about. But I also went further than that. I wanted to suggest more generally one that the instrumental music of Bach is really not fundamentally different from the vocal music, just happens to not have words, but that the, sort of spiritual and intellectual and emotional orientation of the instrumental works is very similar.

And another very important general point to me was that both Bach's repertory and Bach personally reflect a sort of pre-enlightenment way of thinking, such that there's a very skeptical attitude towards reason. Reason is something you can use, but you can't depend on it. And that it's biblical revelation is where you decide whether something is true or not. And so that put him very much at odds with what was coming to be the case in the 18th century and in Europe where people were starting to value reason much more highly. But both in the private Bach in the public Bach, I think the evidence for his being sympathetic to that is overwhelming that he wasn't sympathetic to it. And some people find that idea very controversial because it's unwelcome as far as so-called proof for such a view. I think the historical proof over is extremely strong. So that's what the book is partly about too.

Ron Klemm
You mentioned that it is intended to be scholarly but not devotional. What does that mean?

Michael Marissen
Again, I don't think there's anything wrong with taking a devotional approach to something as long as you're upfront about it and say that that's what you're doing. But, I often been accused of sort of what I was saying at the beginning. He said, oh, you're just a young German Lutheran, so you're defending your guy Bach. So I said, well, actually I'm not that young and I'm not German and I'm not Lutheran. I wanted to sort of fight against the idea that especially popular these days, that it seems almost impossible for people to believe that you could not have a specific agenda. That whatever view you take of Bach is sort of your own politics and your own religion. And actually my own attitude towards politics and religion is quite different from Bach, I think would've found him quite disagreeable to talk to about religion and politics.

Ron Klemm
Well, and I'm sure he would've had a good argument with you too.

Michael Marissen
Yeah, yeah. No exactly. And I've actually been asked if you could go back in time talk to Bach, what would you talk about? I said, I don't think I would talk to him. I would say, oh man, can you please play for me the Well-Tempered Clavier, I'd love to hear how you play it.

A. Dennis Sparger
Yes, exactly.

Michael Marissen
That would be fantastic. I'm not so interested in hearing more about his views than I already know from his music and from the documents that survived.

A. Dennis Sparger
Yeah. And our unending search is trying to find out how he really approached the music.

Michael Marissen
But I guess with generalization, I would say, for example, as you know, the Bach had a large personal library of devotional theological books, and that list was made for tax purposes when he died, and it ended up being divided up between the spouse and children so that they could get the money from. But the only actual physical copy of any of those books that we know about where it's is in St. Louis, Missouri at Concordia Seminary Library. And that 17th century theologian Abraham Calov printed the entire Luther in large print and then in between each of the verses

Ron Klemm
Added his commentary.

Michael Marissen
He scoured through Luther to see what Calov's favorite comment on that verse was. If Luther hadn't said anything about a particular passage, then Calov said, more or less, this is what Luther would've said had he got around to commenting on this.

A. Dennis Sparger
Yes.

Michael Marissen
The reason I bring this up is an extremely valuable biographical document because people often complain about the fact that we have so little documentation of Bach. Unlike Mozart, for example, we have hundreds of letters and some biographers complain that we have too much information about some composers, but there's hardly any about Bach. It's like two-sentence letters of recommendation where he says, yeah, this guy's a really good singer or a good organist or whatever, you should hire him. Or it's a complaint to someone, you promised me that you'd pay me this and keg of beer, where's my keg of beer thing? So there's, there's not much to go on. But this Bible is really fantastic because it contains a large number of underlinings and it contains a fair number of marginal comments that are clearly in Bach's handwriting. And some physicists in California determined that the chemical content of the ink and the underlinings was similar or identical to the ink and the annotations of Bach.

So it shows that he's a very close reader of scripture and very close reader of Luther. And where this is really relevant, and ironically people say that it isn't relevant, is that a lot of the conservative ideas that are put forth in the vocal works are also things that similar things are underlined and commented on the margins by Bach. And some people say, well, this is only valuable if that stuff preceded his actual composing of the vocal works. And I take the exact opposite view in "Bach & God" in "Bach Against Modernity" and say that I know that what the folks would say if those marginal comments had proceeded, the would say, oh, he's just doing due diligence to please his conservative employers, but he's really a liberal modern thinker, and so on and so forth secretly. And so as I said, the exact opposite is true, the fact that in this public music and in his private musings, way after he's written the works, it shows that those private musings that he really does agree with what it says in the cantatas.

Ron Klemm
Consistently.

Michael Marissen
It's consistently. So that's enormous biographical significance. And someday, maybe a Bach biographer will really fully examine that in great detail. I talked a bit about it in connection with specific pieces in "Bach and God" and in "Bach Against Modernity." But I doubt that I'll ever get around to writing a full-fledged Bach biography. I don't think I have it in me, but God bless someone.

Ron Klemm
Well, you're young, Michael. Sure, you can. So this concept of Bach writing to pay the rent, of Bach being a vocational figure, it's true, but it's just the surface of it. Is that kind of what I'm getting?

Michael Marissen
Well, what's the great irony is that we use the word vocational. It's sort of disparaging these days, but vocational comes from the Latin word vocare, to be called. Bach and his contemporaries were good Lutherans who thought that if you were following what you were supposed to be doing, that was a calling, a calling from God. So I think Bach did think that what he was doing was a calling. And maybe you said you weren't sure that you knew much German, but it, it's interesting how the German language even nowadays has holdovers from what Luther brought into it. Germans nowadays often refer to what we would call a job. They call it a beruf, B-E-R-U-F, and beruf, which means to be called. And it's sort of a semi-dead metaphor now, but that word came from the idea that it wasn't just a job, but it was a calling. Anything that you do is a calling. You being a director of The Bach Society of Saint Louis is a calling. You doing podcasts is a calling, working as a church musician is a calling. So there's no doubt in my mind that Bach thought of his writing music for the court and for the church, whether it was liturgical music or secular music, that it was all part of a God inspired calling.

Ron Klemm
There's that Dutch Calvinist reformed background coming through.

Michael Marissen
No, but that's Luther, too.

Ron Klemm
Yes, I know. I know. I just wanted to give you a hard time. We're talking to Dr. Michael Marissen, who is Professor Emeritus at Swarthmore College, and of course the author of "Bach & God" and "Bach Against Modernity" and many other things which we'll talk about straight ahead, along with music director Dennis Sparger. I'm Ron Klemm, and this is Bach Talk.

A. Dennis Sparger
By the way, our guest, Michael Marissen was talking about the Bach Bible or more accurately Bach's own copy of Abraham Calov's Bible commentary in which Bach wrote numerous notes and corrections in the margins, revealing much more about the man and his thinking. These volumes are here in St. Louis in the special collections library at Concordia Seminary. Ron and I have both seen them, and we want you to know that we have been in touch with the curators there and are planning a special episode on the Bach Bible in the months ahead. Meanwhile, next month, our guest on Bach Talk will be music publisher Mark Lawson. He brings an entirely new perspective to our conversations and then a very special event, our June Bach talk episode will be held in front of a live audience at the annual Chorus America Conference held in downtown St. Louis and our guest, internationally renowned music director and conductor, conductor emeritus of the St. Louis Symphony, Leonard Slatkin. That's an hour you can't miss, for the insight, the stories and the unpredictable laughter and fun that Maestro Slatkin can bring. Leonard Slatkin, live and unscripted coming in June to Bach Talk. Now, back to our conversation with author and Bach scholar Michael Marissen. We spoke to him from his apartment in New York City.

Ron Klemm
Words matter. You are an author. You must live by that mantra, but words exist in various languages. So tell us about the problems that we experience in terms of understanding what texts mean, understanding what intentions are in music and so on, because of this problem with translation.

Michael Marissen
Yeah, my colleague, Daniel Melamed and I are in the middle of a massive project to make historically informed translations of all the librettos that Bach set to music and provide them with theological, linguistic and historical annotations. Because, to put it bluntly, a number of people have tried to translate them before, and have done a pretty good job. But our feeling was, as obnoxious as it may sound, that it wasn't quite good enough. It's no fault of those other folks. The problem is you really need to have a pretty good knowledge of the Bible, which many don't have, and you need to have a sensitivity to the fact that German words from the 17th and early 18th century that looked like they're the same as words that are used nowadays don't necessarily mean the same thing. That's true in English too. We constantly run against this thing.

Someone will say, oh, we've got someone in the choir as a native speaker, so we're all covered. I said, well, a native speaker actually is going to be almost the least useful person to have around because they're going to think that they know what it means already. And in fact, they're all the less likely to understand because they won't take the time to really go through it really slowly and be careful about it, not to be abstract about it. Let me give a really simple example. In the St. John for example, it says that one of the chorals that's commenting on the story refers to the fact that he uses the adverb milde, M-I-L-D-E, as an adver to describe the way that Jesus is bleeding on the cross.

So in modern German milde means gently. So when your CD booklets and it says that Jesus gently bleeds on the cross, and it sounds like that could be right, but in fact, it's counter to the very essence of the gospel of John where Jesus dying on the cross is a great moment of triumph. There's nothing gentle about it. And so our intuition is as translators is that that can't be right. And so you look in historical dictionaries, and the wonderful thing is that there's some central place in Munich that's made this fantastic website where you can search a word and it'll search all 28 historical dictionaries.

Ron Klemm
Wow. Who needs AI.

Michael Marissen
No, exactly. And it's brutal to read because they'll have a 30-page-single-space thing with abbreviations explaining what this word means. But if you dig around, oh yeah, milde in the 17th century is used as a theological term to mean copious or generous.

A. Dennis Sparger
Quite the opposite.

Michael Marissen
And Luther uses the word that way in his translation of the Hebrew Bible in the Psalms in some cases. But when you buy a Luther Bible, now those are updated because it's too confusing to people. So they put some other, or they'll substitute a word like that, which means generous, in order to make it clearer to later readers. So we felt it was very important to be not only sensitive to the Bible, but specifically sensitive to the Bible in the form that it was in Bach's day. Yes. And in the way that the words were understood in Bach's day.

A. Dennis Sparger
Sure. Well, I found it fascinating when I was reading "Bach & ,God", that there were so many examples of cantata text where you would not only show the original German, but then offer translations that you would find in half a dozen or more recordings where the author would provide a translation for us and how different they could be.

Michael Marissen
Well, yeah. I mean, sometimes they are legitimate differences of opinion or something, but sometimes they're just frankly just wrong. So it's important, I think, to at least know what the range of plausible things might be. But just a few weeks ago, we were doing one and struck me over the head as we were looking at the new Bach edition, and you know how the closing chorales in the original scores of Bach, often he doesn't bother to provide the text in the closing choral. He just provides the harmonization. It's only in the separate performing parts afterwards that the scribe will write in the words. And for this particular cantata, those performing parts are now lost. So all we have is Bach's score with no text for the final movement. And so someone had provided one in the 19th century, and that's the one that's in all the recordings and that's on all the booklets and so on and so forth.

And it said very, very straightforward. He said, you have to earn God's salvation. I go, oh my God, that's not right. Are you kidding me? Day one in catechism, they hammer into you. The most significant thing probably in the entire Lutheran Reformation is that's not the case. So I thought, what are people like asleep here? And so I looked into, oh, of course, that's what I discovered this had actually been added in the 19th century. And so we just said, this can't be right. There's absolutely no way that Bach even use this text. And so we provided it with the proper stance from a hymnal in Bach's day. So my point is that isn't always a matter just of translating correctly. You have to be really paying attention to what's in front of you too, to see whether the thing that you're translating is in fact even plausible in the first place. And so that was a particularly good example of that.

Ron Klemm
Obviously, if you want to sing these in English, which is we don't do much anymore thanks to supertitles and subtitles, you have to have some sort of sense of meter and rhyme. And so this must be where a lot of the problems happen.

Michael Marissen
Yeah, those are the most severe ones because no matter if you're Shakespeare himself, it's absolutely impossible to translate into another language where you maintain the rhythm and the rhyme scheme.

It's actually absolutely impossible. So I'm not saying you shouldn't do it. We didn't want to do that because we were concerned with what it actually meant. If you care about what it means, you won't do that. But if you want to provide a good experience for people where you change the meaning of it, but at least they understand what they're singing. I'm not knocking that, but I would say that's more of a devotional. Again, there's nothing wrong with being devotional, but that's a devotional exercise. If you want to sing what Bach actually set out what he was actually up to, then I think you just have to do it in German and provide a decent translation.

A. Dennis Sparger
Sure. Let me ask, are you doing all of this to provide performing additions for the marketplace or just to prepare performances?

Michael Marissen
They're made available for free to performers, to people teaching classes, to people making booklets. We put them on the web as something, or you can even look at on your phone in a concert with the dark setting and so on and so forth. But we also provide a, you can download a Word document that you can then reformat it into your printed program if you want. And we even made a so-called JSON e-version of it that's machine-readable. So we're trying to make it just as available to as many people as possible for free. And we've been very delighted, for example, that, I dunno if you know this series in the Netherlands, All of Bach, where they're recording all 1200 works of Bach on videos, they've done about four or 500.

Ron Klemm
Is this the Netherlands Bach Society doing this?

Michael Marissen
Yeah, exactly. And they've been using these now as much whenever they're available. And if they're not available, then they go to someone else. So we're very happy about the fact that for decades people have been studying so-called historical performance practice. What kind of organ did they use? If you played the note A, how many times did the air vibrate per second when you do that? Or how many people were in the choir and should you play with vibrato or not? And what kind of oboe is this and what is an oboe da caccia nd so on and so forth. And enormous amounts of historical research has been done on that and has been incorporated into some performances. But what's been really weak actually, is the actual content of the text. So that's, we're trying to provide that little, or big, I should say, missing piece.

Ron Klemm
That's the voice of Dr. Michael Marissen, professor emeritus at Swarthmore College. He's an author and we're talking to him about "Bach & God" and a whole lot of other things along with music director Dennis Sparger of our Bach Society. I'm Ron Klemm. This is Bach talk.

A. Dennis Sparger
It must have been almost a year ago that I found some type of an announcement about your book "Bach and Modernity", maybe covered in the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal. I thought I should get a copy of this. So I ordered one and read through it, and it was interesting to find that right off the bat, you're defining what the three words mean in "Bach Against Modernity". Would you like to say something about that?

Michael Marissen
Yeah, well, I mean, people have very strong feelings about Bach. I hardly need to tell you that.

A. Dennis Sparger
Sure.

Michael Marissen
And people don't like being, don't like their hero to be talked about in a way that's different from what they're accustomed to. I mean, this came up in the first place. I think it's talked a little bit about in the preface that I joke with all my colleagues, you suddenly get old when you get invited to give the keynote address at conferences. I was asked to do a keynote address at a conference, a wonderful conference in Massachusetts that was on Bach and global modernism and postmodernism and whatnot. I was going to turn it down. And then my spouse, a wonderful novelist, she said to me, oh, well and said, why are you going to turn down? I said, because as you know, I don't think that Bach is a modern figure. I think he's an anti-modern figure. I can't justly accept such an invitation to speak there. I don't think. She said, why don't you tell them that you'd like to talk about Bach against modernity?

Ron Klemm
There you go. See, that's why our wives are always right.

Michael Marissen
Which was a brilliant idea. And so I was a little apprehensive about, but I thought, well, I'll give it a shot. And they were a little bit taken aback, but that sounds really interesting. And at the very least, that ought to generate a lot of discussion. And so that's what I did. But as you were starting to allude to that, all three of those words, you could have a fist fight about what exactly they mean?

A. Dennis Sparger
Yes.

Michael Marissen
By Bach, do you mean Bach the man, or do you mean his music, or do you mean both by against, do you mean just in contrast to, or do you mean

Ron Klemm
Vehemently opposed?

Michael Marissen
vehemently opposed to, and modernity. What does modernity mean? That's the hardest one of all, too.

Ron Klemm
Yeah, well explain that one. What do you mean when you use modernity? What are you talking about?

Michael Marissen
Well, I was mostly talking about what kinds of things have, if you took an undergraduate history class and they talked about pre-modernity and modernity, what are the things they most likely would focus on there? And probably one of the central ones that we alluded to at the beginning of our talking today, the extent to which you're willing to exalt the use of reason or not. That's a real, really strong marker of a modern thinker. Others involve things like the extent to which you think that humanity is necessarily perfectable, but at least whether they really can genuinely get better or not by applying themselves to their situations and so on, which was a kind of optimism that modern thinkers had. It seems very much not in evidence in Bach, with a very dim view of, not quite dim a view of human nature as Calvinists do, but the Lutherans in Bach's day had a pretty, the conservative ones had a pretty dim view of human nature.

And that makes them I guess, also I would say pre-modern, a little bit less clear is the attitude towards not only this particularly monarchy, but more specifically what Germans called rangordnun, which is a wonderful phrase, rangordnun has to do with hierarchies and the idea is that just to give, one society, of course, hierarchical, we have a king at the top and subjects underneath them, and then manual labor is beneath them. And Luther's own view was that it was foolish to promote equality among people on earth because inequality was a necessary evil in a fallen world. And that it's only in the afterlife that you're going to have genuine equality, but if you pursue it too heavily in the present world, you're just sewing chaos. And chaos is really a bad thing. Pre-modern thinkers tend to have a much more respect for social hierarchy, whereas modern thinkers tend to be more skeptical, although Calvinists are a little bit more tricky on that because they're skeptical of monarchy. Whereas the Lutherans were, Bach was a complete monarchist. The idea that he would've been in favor of modern equity and quality and so on. Again, I don't see any evidence of that either in the vocal works or in his annotations, in his Bible, and so on and so forth.

A. Dennis Sparger

Let me turn the page in your book, so to speak. One of the things that really struck me, and this is because as performers we're concerned about why our audiences come to hear performances of Bach or other great composers, what are they getting out of it? And you really bring up this concept of comfort and joy that affects both of Bach lovers who come for religious or spiritual enrichment, and those who don't have any faith at all, and the words may not affect them the same way, but they also get comfort and joy out of all of this, you Richard Russo saying, most people don't want to be entertained. They want to be comforted.

Michael Marissen
That's true. I think that's a very profound observation that Russo made, I think, and I think that does speak to why B has such a wide range of people who are interested in him nowadays. It's almost inconceivable to a lot of people why Bach wasn't the first choice among the Leipzigers when they were trying to get the director of music of Leipzig in 1723, but if you're a historian, you can understand it a little more. Telemann was their top choice, who is a wonderful composer. Absolutely wonderful composer, but part of the reason that I think that Bach is so well liked nowadays is a combination of things, because we have different values than people did in Bach's day. In Bach's day, there was no great value placed on originality. Bach can't help being original.

Ron Klemm
He can't help himself.

Michael Marissen
And as I never tire saying, he has an extremely original voice, so to speak, a voice in quotation marks, without actually, what he has to say though, however, is not personal to him. What he's doing with his very individual sounding voice is promoting and reflecting communal ideas, not personal ideas. So Telemann was very good at these things too, but Telemann and various other German composers, they didn't have quite as powerful idiosyncratic voices as Bach does and the depth of emotion with which they set the music, again, it's wonderful. I love their music, but it just doesn't have the depth of intellect and emotion that Bach does. And so I think that part of the reason that Bach is so well followed now is the profundity of the joy and the profundity of the sorrow. And it's that you don't even have to know what those are attached to in order to be moved by it. The sound of the happiness and the sound of the joy that you're affected by. And if you happen to have a general idea what the words mean and you're a believer, then that's all even better. And if you're an unbeliever and you don't know what the words mean, you don't care because you just enjoy reveling in the profundity of intellect and feeling from the sounds of the music itself. I would never say that Bach is actually universal, because I think not everyone loves him, but he, he's a very, very strong niche

in modern music making. I think because of the great skill in putting things together in such a way that intellect is powerful, emotion is powerful, and they're in a really good balance with each other. Some composers can be more emotional or more intellectual than Bach, but they don't have this sort of perfect balance of those things like he does.

A. Dennis Sparger
And so much of this, I think has become so much more possible in the last, what, 40 or 50 years because of better performance practice methods. I remember as an undergraduate, listening to Bach was really a dull experience. Everything was slow and dark and very heavy. Yes. And wow, now it dances.

Michael Marissen
Yeah, and it's fantastic that there are four or five really quite good complete more or less complete recordings of all the Bach vocal works. And I grew up in a fairly, I wasn't super poor, but it was basically in the low end that was describing before. I mean, my family is farm hands all the way back to the Middle ages. People say to me when I was in graduate school, oh, you got to go to concerts. Recordings are no good. You don't really experience music unless you experience a lot. Of course, a live concert is fantastic. I've come to love that. But there were lots of people like myself when I was younger, there was no concert to go to. And if there had been one, we wouldn't have been able to afford it. But with my paper money, you could buy a LP of Gustav Lionheart doing the cantatas, and you could listen to it a hundred times. And I mean, I got to know the Bach vocal works mostly from recordings first before it became wealthy enough as a professor and so on that I actually afford to go to concerts in London and Berlin and New York.

A. Dennis Sparger
It's kind of interesting that all three of us come from rather similar backgrounds with our families, and yet still have found so much joy out of, dare I say, committing our lives to the music of Bach.

Ron Klemm
As I looked at your background, I found that you spent a little time at a little place down the street here called Washington University in Saint Louis.

Michael Marissen
Indeed.

Ron Klemm
Tell us about that chapter in your life.

Michael Marissen
Yes. Well, right after I went to Calvin College for undergraduate from a bachelor's degree, and then studied for one year in St. Louis, really enjoyed it. Studying with a great conductor, Nicholas McGegan, musicologist Laurence Dreyfus, who's quite a good Bach scholar and several others. And I would've stayed there, but as it happened, nearly the entire music history faculty all left at the end of the year that I was there. And so one of them helped me switch to another school where he thought he was going to be continuing to teach. It. Turns out he didn't get that job after all. But I went to there and I ended up getting my PhD from Brandeis University in Boston. But I thought Saint Louis was wonderful. I really enjoyed living there and would've been very happy if the faculty had stayed there, then I would've stayed there too. And the faculty got very much back on its feet a few years later. But in the meantime, I had to keep going.

A. Dennis Sparger
I want to make sure we don't spin out of time without having an opportunity for you to talk about Soli Deo gloria. And quite often we're under the impression that Bach wrote that at the end of all of his pieces, and this is just not quite true.

Michael Marissen

Right? Well, in fact, I think the fact that it's not true is what makes the fact that he did do it more significant.

A. Dennis Sparger
Yes. And when?

Michael Marissen
Yes, exactly, because I was stunned to read. I mean, people would say he hardly ever did it, and other people said he always did. These are things that there are such things as facts. These are things that easily check is not a subjective opinion. You can just, so I think I was the first person in a long time to do this. I just went through the entire Bach repertory and just looked at every single Bach score in his handwriting, whether it was music by him or because he did this also in when he was copying on other people's scores and made a notation of whether he wrote at the beginning. The two things they usually did was at the very beginning of the upper lefthand corner of the first page you would write J dot J dot, which was a short form for Jesu Juva, Jesus help me as I do my vocation. And then when he's done, he writes Soli Deo gloria, sdg. So glory, the glory of this belongs to God alone and not to the composer that very anti-modern too. Of course.

A. Dennis Sparger
Yeah. I was just going to add that. Yes, you're right. Yeah.

Michael Marissen
If you line these things up chronologically, what you find is that towards the beginning of career, Bach didn't do it all that often, but he was familiar with the practice. He knew about it, and he did it very, very infrequently.

A. Dennis Sparger
And others did this. It was not unique to Bach

Michael Marissen
By all means. And I haven't studied in great detail the frequency with which it's quite possible that some people who did it were insincere about it or that you can't really draw any significant conclusion from it. But in Bach's actual practice, it seemed pretty clear that there was a rise and fall to it, and there was a strong pattern to it. And the more personal trouble he was in, the more likely he was to write JJ at the beginning. And the more he actually accomplished, the more likely he was to write in. Soli Deo gloria at the end, so I thought I really saw this as just one more sort of marker of the genuineness of Bach's religious commitment to the reper. And this idea that I love, it's a phrase I think I borrowed from Dickens, probably won't remember it now, but in one of the footnotes, an article called The Lutheran Credo in Bach's Mass in B minor.

A. Dennis Sparger
Oh, wow. Oh yes, I did read that.

Michael Marissen
And I made a crack in one of the footnotes about it. As far as we know, Bach was never wrapped in contemplations of this future glory. I think he's thinking about Friday or Sunday morning. He's not thinking about in 2025, they might be doing 30 of his cantatas at the Leipzig Bach Fest. I think he would've been appalled at the idea that these Bach church cantatas were being, here I totally agree with my teacher Cal Stapert who said things like, why don't you write your own cantatas and why are you doing my stuff?

Ron Klemm
Talk about the, you alluded to it earlier, but specifically where we see Bach's faith, his world and life view as it's expressed in solely instrumental music, you have already made it pretty clear and put down this idea that Bach'sC goal was to write purely instrumental music. And so we can get past that. So where does this show up? How does it show up? And what's the significance of it?

Michael Marissen
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that some of these Lutheran patterns of thought are the kinds of thing that cause you to generate similar kinds of music. So probably the best example, this is the Brandenburg Concertos, if I can maybe oversimplify a little bit. The traditional biographical view has been that the absolute apex of Bach's output, both for us and for him, were pieces like Brandenburg Concertos and the church cantatas were written just to pay the rent. And the church cantatas, what the church cantatas essentially are Brandenburg Concertos with unnecessary words added to them.

And my view is exactly the opposite, which is that the Brandenburg Concertos are essentially like church cantatas, but they lack words, so they're harder to read. And so what I mean by that is that, just use one really simple example, like in Canata 70 of Bach, there's a really bizarre scoring thing that happens where you've got the right hand and left hand of the organ playing this twisty chromatic line that if you were just looking at a score and didn't know what instrument was supposed to be playing, you would never guess that it was an organ part. You would assume that those are violin parts. And then below that is a very simple baseline that's actually being played in the treble, in the soprano range by violins. And so what's happened in this piece is that the role of the violin, the role of the organ has switched places so that the organs pretending like it's a violin wood, and the violins are pretending like the pedals on an organ. And this is what in Bach day they was called, or the perverted world, the upside down world. And the idea was that if you represented things the opposite of the way that they were supposed to be, it would be so striking to you that would make you question the necessity in eternity of this hierarchy that we're, it's sort of like a Mardi Gras where servants dress up as kings and vice versa. You're allowed to do that for a day, just as a way of reminding you that the current situation is one that's ephemeral and that kind of Lutheran thought is then expressed in the cantata with that scoring. And the text actually talks about the word fahart even appears in the German of that aria. And then similarly in the Brandenburg concertos, you have instruments doing exacts like in the sixth virtuoso violas, the viola, the slag heap of the orchestra. And it's playing these wickedly virtuo things while the viola de gamba, which is the most very sophisticated French Barque instrument with highly virtuous music written for it in the 18th century. And it's just going in the background like violas often do in music by other people. And so I see that as a sort of instrumental world upside down without words, but it's basically projecting similar kind of ideas what the cantatas was. There's a trumpet motive that appears in about 10 or 15 church cantatas. It's probably the most significant example of it's in this magnificent cantata 75 watch and pray, pray and watch. You never know when he's going to come back.

A. Dennis Sparger
Right? Yes.

Michael Marissen
It's terrifying opening movement where that trumpet call is played over and over and over again, and all the times in the Bach cantatas taught us when that happens, the text is talking about what Lutherans called the third coming of Christ but, which all other Protestants called the second coming when Jesus comes back and is going to lead his followers and destroy the cosmos and make a new Jerusalem and so on and so forth. If you look up in trumpet signals from the 18th century, the nickname for that tune is, which means get on your horse.

But how does that have to do with anything? Well, it's because the idea is you're supposed to get on your horse in order to go into battle. And so the trumpet call is supposed to be terrifying. So that sort of evocation of that final battle. The reason I bring this all up is that there's a wonderful orchestra suite Bach wrote for the Calvinist court where he didn't have church music for reasons that we won't dilate on. That's another episode. But there's a bizarre, with this wonderful, elegant thing where oboes are going, you can just imagine the aristocrats with their wigs on and their lead paint and beauty spot making these gorgeous, but in the background, the string instruments go there and there's what the theologian called the eschaton. The end times I hear in this orchestral suite, people play it really softly because they think it doesn't fit with what the oboes are doing, but there's nothing, there's no indication in the music that you're supposed to play. You should be able to hear it much more prominently. It should actually sound like a weird sort of clash. And the point, and the reason is because it's evoking the same thing that's being evoked in the cantatas is the end times. Sometimes there can be quotations of Lutheran chorales and so on in instrumental music that will evoke textual content. And that's interesting. But I think the most interesting thing are these more general things like the world upside down business where it goes beyond specific words, but has to do with the actual structure of the music itself as opposed to quoting either words or melodies. But I don't know. I wouldn't say it all sounds the same to me, but I guess what I'm trying to say is it doesn't sound to me like the instrumental music is from a different world than the vocal music is from, from the same world as far as as I can see and hear.

Ron Klemm
Two sides of the same coin.

Michael Marissen
Exactly. Exactly.

Ron Klemm
Well, you have been a real joy to talk to and to get to know and to surprise and a comfort. Yes. Thank you so much for spending time with us. Been marvelous. We appreciate it.

Michael Marissen
Yes, great pleasure. Thank you for having me.

(46:15) A. Dennis Sparger
The Bach Society Orchestra playing the opening of Bach's Brandenburg concert number one from a concert in 2022. We also heard earlier from The Bach Society Chorus from Organist Philip Rowland. And pianist and box society accompanist. Sandra Geary, the recording engineer for all of these musical samples is Paul Hennerich.

We want to answer your questions, whether you have a question for me, for Ron Klemm or for any of our past guests. Take a moment right now to contact us with your questions. Just go to bachsociety.org. And click on Bach Talk. On that page, there's a simple form that you can use to ask your question. Or if you prefer, send us an email directly, bachtalk@bachsociety.org.

We look forward to hearing from you.

And again, as a reminder, next month our guests on Bach talk will be music publisher Mark Lawson, and in June. Leonard Slatkin Live and unscripted as Bach Talk will take place in front of a live audience at the annual Chorus America Conference in downtown St. Louis. Maestro Slatkin is an internationally renowned music director and conductor with keen musical insight.

He has a lifetime of behind the scenes stories, sure to bring copious amounts of laughter and fun. The Bach Society Chorus will perform live as well. That's Bach Talk Live with Leonard Slatkin, coming in June.

The associate producer of Bach Talk is Scott MacDonald. Special thanks to our esteemed guest today, author and Bach scholar, Dr. Michael Marissen. Additional assistance provided by Benita Walters Fredlund, Keith Fredlund, Andie Murphy and Charissa Marciniak, along with Ron Klemm. This is Dennis Sparger.

Bach Talk is a registered trademark of The Bach Society of Saint Louis.

About Episode 19

The conversation continues with internationally acclaimed soprano Christine Brewer! She’s sharing more stories from behind the curtain, including the reality of on-stage mishaps, her perspectives on teaching young artists and how our life experiences shape the way music is both performed and felt. With many accolades including a star on the St. Louis Walk of Fame, she is a true star in every sense. But it’s her humility and kindness that shine through most in this heartfelt conversation. Join Ron Klemm and A. Dennis Sparger for another glimpse into the world of one of the greatest sopranos of all time on Bach Talk.

Transcription

(00:00) Ron Klemm
This is Bach Talk.

Soprano Christine Brewer began her career singing in the choruses of the St. Louis Symphony and Opera Theatre of St. Louis. After winning the Metropolitan Opera auditions and the Richard Tucker Award in 1989, Brewer performed with the top symphonies and operas around the world. Oh, by the way, I didn't write this.

As a matter of fact, I'm reading from the sidewalk, from a plaque that lies embedded on Delmar Boulevard, right alongside a star on the St. Louis Walk of Fame. And on that star, the name Christine Brewer is blazoned in gold. It's an honor bestowed on only a few of the most influential, most significant, preeminent St. Louisans, who have made a national impact on our culture and our history. Artists, performers, sports figures, entertainers, our region's most recognizable figures, past and present, are permanently celebrated on the St. Louis Walk of Fame. But I digress. Let me skip to the bottom. A meticulous, yet down to earth artist, blessed with a golden voice, Christine Brewer was named one of the greatest sopranos of all time by BBC Music Magazine in 2007, end of quote.

Hello and welcome to Bach Talk, I'm Ron Klemm. One of my greatest joys in life, I have to admit, is to know and have friendships and conversations. With some truly remarkable people. And recently I had a chance to sit down with two such friends. Bach Society Music Director and Conductor Dennis Sparger invited soprano Christine Brewer and me over to his Belleville, Illinois home.

We had a cup of coffee and a wonderful extended chat. We talked about music and singing, of course, and about Christine's amazing international career, including her many appearances with The Bach Society of Saint Louis. But we also talked about family, about relationships, and about life itself. I hope you've had a chance to hear our previous episode of Bach Talk, when Christine shared thoughts about her musical beginnings, her small town upbringing, her many travels, and a bevy of other topics.

We want to pick up today where we left off last time, and it will become clear almost immediately that Christine owes a lot of her concert career to Maestro Sparger himself. 

(03:16) A. Dennis Sparger
So many of these places you were spending a lot of time, especially in preparing for an opera. In the concert work, you were probably there for a much shorter period of time and didn't get to spend as much time with conductors and that.

Have you still built up a lot of long-lasting relationships? 

(03:33) Christine Brewer
Yes, yes. That's, that's good to bring that up too about the concert repertoire because, and you were a big part of that, Dennis, when, um, I was sort of trying to start out and figure out what, what I was going to do. I remember I called you and said, can I come and audition for you?

Um, and you very kindly.

(03:53) A. Dennis Sparger
I probably said, no.

(03:54) Christine Brewer
Who are you? 

(03:57) Ron Klemm
You wouldn't be here today if he said no. 

(04:00) Christine Brewer
And so you took a chance on me and hired me to start doing concert work. 

(04:06) A. Dennis Sparger
Oh, I had to. 

(04:08) Ron Klemm
What do you mean you had to? 

(04:11) A. Dennis Sparger
Well, at that time I was conducting the Masterworks Chorale and had a wonderful tenor, Tom Sturgis.

And his wife buttonholed me and she said, there's this young lady who sung at our church and she's just terrific and Dennis, you've got to hear her or else. So you came over

(04:30) Christine Brewer
That's good. 

(04:30) A. Dennis Sparger
to my house. I was living on the east end of Belleville at that time and you brought along Elizabeth. She sat underneath the piano while I accompanied and you sang for me and I said, okay, let's do this.

And, um, and you sang with us that following fall and you did a Bach cantata and was the soloist in the Brahms German Requiem. And that started it all. And uh, when I finally moved on to take the position with The Bach Society, you had already sung five times with The Bach Society with two of my predecessors, but, uh, but you sang in my first concert with, with The Bach Society, uh, doing a Bach's cantata 51, which was a big work for soprano.

(05:17) Ron Klemm
It's a tour de force for a soprano. 

(05:19) Christine Brewer
It is. I loved it. Oh my gosh. But that's the kind of stuff, and I would often, and I still, when I hear a young singer who is probably going to have a big voice, I tell them, if you can get into doing concert repertoire and learn concert repertoire, this is a way you can, you know, keep your voice healthy as you're preparing your Strauss or whatever, and you can earn a living. And I said, that for me was huge. And I've kept the concert repertoire up all through my career and because first of all, because I love it, but it also is a way to keep your voice and I'll quote Birgit Nilsson because she was a big mentor for me, healthy and youthful. Those were her two favorite words. And every time she heard me sing or she would write me a note about something she heard on BBC, well, your voice sounds healthy and youthful. This is good. But she said for her one of the reasons she thinks her voice was, you know stayed so strong was because when she was performing She said we didn't have this you could sing in Berlin one night the next night.

You're gonna be in Los Angeles or New York. She said I took the train to the next and I would study my music quietly and I didn't, you know, so she said try not to have your managers book you so many back to back things or put in a concert thing before you do another opera. And I really did. I mean, I'd say probably 80 or 90 percent of the time was able to do that. There were some times I thought, Oh, I can't get rid of this. I got to do this, you know, but um, but she was so right. So because you took a chance on me and we started doing concerts, it was like, I love this repertoire, you know, and I think that's what kept my voice healthy.

(07:18) A. Dennis Sparger
Oh, that's terrific. 

(07:19) Christine Brewer
Yeah. 

(07:20) A. Dennis Sparger
Wow. 

(07:20) Christine Brewer
I think. 

(07:21) A. Dennis Sparger
But having been around the world, there's so many different places. Are there some favorite halls that you love to sing in? 

(07:28) Christine Brewer
One of them is Wigmore Hall. 

(07:30) Ron Klemm
Oh, sure. 

(07:30) Christine Brewer
And it's in London. 

(07:31) Ron Klemm
Well, you've recorded there, too. 

(07:33) Christine Brewer
I have. I have. And I, I had my London manager, Peter Bloor, who was, he was not just an agent.

He was a manager. He would really, we would sit down and he would say, okay, where do you want to be in five years? And how do we want to get there? And as I knew that the Wagner was starting to come, and I started working on it. With Miss Nilsson, in my early 30s, I would say, 32, 33. And, um, and she said too, she said, the Wagner will come,

the Strauss will probably come before that. So I sang a lot of Ariadne's, you know, but she said, um, just, just take your time with the Wagner and, and, you know, let your voice develop. So I remember sitting down with Peter and I said, I would love to sing Isolde. Um, Here's how I'd love to do it. And at this point, I had been working with Donald Runnicles on, we had done, um, excerpts from The Ring, from Valkyrie.

We did, um, some concerts with the BBC Symphony. And, um, And I, in Berlin, I did the second act of Tristan and Isolde. That was, you know, so I had a little taste of it. But I said, I'd love to do the whole opera, but if it's possible to do it in concert the first time and to do it with Donald Runnicles, that would be great. And 

(08:59) A. Dennis Sparger
That's all. 

(08:59) Christine Brewer
They figured it out. They did. 

(09:02) A. Dennis Sparger
They did it, wow. 

(09:03) Christine Brewer
And Donald said, why don't we do three concerts and one night we'll do act one. And the first half we'll do something else. And then we'll do, next night we'll do act two, then act three. And, um, and I was 40 when I did my first Isolde and it was broadcast on BBC radio and, um, someone from Warner Records, Was listening, I guess it was, I don't know, maybe it was the second act night. And he, he called my manager the next day, he said, I was driving home from somewhere, and he said, I had to sit in the car to hear who the soprano was. And he said, um, we'd like to have her record this.

And so they ended up, Warner, well then I had another offer too, to sing it with Placido Domingo. And, um, it conflicted when they were going to do the recordings that conflicted with something else I was doing. And I said, I, I never wanted to just, you know, break a contract. I just didn't do it. 

(10:09) Ron Klemm
Well, that's part of your upbringing.

(10:11) Christine Brewer
I know, it is, it is. So, um, my manager said, well, okay, you missed that opportunity, but Warner Records is going to buy the recording from BBC. So they, they released it. So. We've got it at least, you know, recorded, but, um, but I think having, oh, but anyway, so, um, the Wigmore Hall, how did I get off on that one, Ron? 

(10:35) Ron Klemm
I know, I know.

(10:36) Christine Brewer
I'm sorry. 

(10:37) Ron Klemm
It's a good thing I could edit. 

(10:39) Christine Brewer
Yeah, really. I told you I was going to be long-winded. Um, but Peter Bloor would make a list so that whenever I sang, and I sang at Wigmore Hall several times. Um, Several times. And he made a list by composer, and we put what I sang by Harold Arlen, what year I sang it, what I sang by Samuel Barber, Berg, Bolcom, Britton, John Carter, Aaron Copland, Celia Storti, Foster, Richard Hundley, Charles Ives, Marx, Menotti, oh yeah, um, Gian Carlo Menotti wrote And Um, a song cycle for Soprano, and he wrote it for, um, did he write it for Beverly Sills?

I think he wrote it for Elizabeth Schwarzkopf, I think. Anyway. I met Gian Carlo, um, because I sang at the Spoleto Festival down in Charleston. And, um, again, Elizabeth was on the trip with me. And my pianist, um, and the three of us.

(11:48) Ron Klemm
Who was who? 

(11:48) Christine Brewer
Kurt Pabot. 

(11:49) Ron Klemm
Oh, sure. I remember Kurt. 

(11:52) Christine Brewer
And, um And we did a recital and so Elizabeth was with us, so she just sat up and I said, can you get her a comp ticket?

I didn't know where she was going to be sitting, but she was seated next to Gian Carlo. And, um, Oh my gosh. In the first 

(12:09) Ron Klemm
You're blushing. 

(12:10) Christine Brewer
Oh my gosh. As I recall some of this. Now, why is it? that we remember the, the, the bad things, the mistakes we make. Oh, that's what we

(12:20) Ron Klemm Don't get me started. 

(12:21) Christine Brewer
It's like, really? But I did a big, it was a big recital. I did a lot of, I want to say probably the Wagner Wesendonck Lieder and some Strauss songs, and maybe some Joseph Mark songs in the first half. It was, it was a heavy first half, second half we were doing, we started out with some Irish folk songs and 

(12:43) Ron Klemm
lighten up a little bit.

(12:44) Christine Brewer
Yep. Yep. And, uh, we're going along and I started singing. Um, it was one that was had, it had like seven verses and I, 

(12:56) Ron Klemm
you mean a Bach Chorale? 

(12:58) Christine Brewer
Yeah, right, right. And I, I got lost after like the fifth verse. And poor Kurt, I could see his, I could still see his face of horror as I just stopped and I, and of course, I started laughing.

I said, I said, Oh my gosh, I said, I looked over at Kurt and he's just like, Oh, no, tell me. And it had a real accompaniment that was really difficult. Yes. Yes. 

I said, okay, here's the deal. You all have the gist of this so far. He's been there. He's danced there. He's dead. We're going to just pick up on the fifth verse, if that's okay.

And we just went on and finished it. And he just looked at me and he said, the thought that went through my mind was, okay, that was fine for this. She cannot do that again in this concert, and I didn't. I made it through, but the first thing Elizabeth said, she was about seven. She walks in the dressing room after and she went, Ah, what happened?

She said, and I'm sitting right next to Mr. Spoleto. I said, Monati is his name. And she said, I was just so embarrassed. I was so embarrassed. I said, well, honey, I said it happens and you just pick up and keep going, you know, but 

(14:15) Ron Klemm
wait a minute. It happens?

(14:17) Christine Brewer
It does. 

(14:17) Ron Klemm
To the top 20 sopranos of all time. I'm serious.

This is something to talk about. In fact, why don't we, why don't we take a quick break here and come back and talk about that and many, many other things that is the healthy and young voice of Christine Brewer. Along with music director Dennis Sparger of The Bach Society, I'm Ron Klem. This is Bach Talk.

I want to take a moment to remind you that we plan to spend some time in our next episode and beyond answering your questions. Whether it's a question for our music director and conductor Dennis Sparger or any of The Bach Society staff, a question for me or for any of our previous guests, we want to answer it for you.

And we have an easy way for you to send us your question or comment. Just go to BachSociety.org and click on the Bach Talk page. There you'll find a simple form that you can use. Or if you'd rather, shoot me an email directly. BachTalk @bachSociety.Org. I look forward to hearing from you. And now, back to our conversation with internationally renowned soprano Christine Brewer.

We were talking about, I believe the phrase is, train wrecks. These happen in life and also in your line of work. What is the best way to Approach that type of thing. Do you, do you just forget about it and move on or do you embrace the moment? How, how does that work? 

(15:54) Christine Brewer
Probably a combination of all things.

Um, I do, and I remember this Dennis, and I'm sure you do too. When we did the Bach B minor mass, this is what the Masterworks Chorale. 

(16:09) A. Dennis Sparger
Oh, okay. 

(16:10) Christine Brewer
And I remember one movement when I just, I don't know if I turned the page too soon, too late, didn't 

(16:17) A. Dennis Sparger
Or turned two at once. 

(16:18) Christine Brewer
Turned two at once. I don't know what happened. I got lost. And I just remember that deer in headlights look I was giving you like, Oh my God. And why do you remember that stuff? You know, I mean, it's just. It's like, Oh, come on, Chris, get over this. 

(16:32) A. Dennis Sparger
Well, thank goodness. I've forgotten that. 

(16:33) Christine Brewer
Oh, good. Oh, well, now you've got it. 

(16:36) A. Dennis Sparger
I must have the recording somewhere. 

(16:37) Christine Brewer
Oh, no. No. 

(16:40) Ron Klemm
And we'll dig it up. 

(16:41) Christine Brewer
Oh, great. Yes. But yeah, it, it does happen. And for me. It happens if I'm doing an opera and you've got several performances and it usually happens about the fifth performance and sometimes you get a little bit over, you know, just kind of autopilot and all of a sudden I remember one time doing Fidelio and I'm, you know, I'm acting my guts off, you know, and, and I'm hearing this music and I'm thinking, somebody's supposed to be singing right now.

And I'm looking at them, the conductor and I'm the you know yeah, are you going to, and I'm like oh it's me, shoot!

So sometimes, and I just keep, you know, acting like I meant to do that, um, sometimes I make up words, you know.

(17:33) Ron Klemm
Watermelon, 

(17:34) Christine Brewer
Well, no, no, no, really, really words that are, and I had a French, um, coach when I did Alceste at the Santa Fe Opera. And that's one long opera. And Alceste is only off the stage for 15 minutes in the whole opera.

(17:51) Ron Klemm
Holy smokes. 

(17:52) Christine Brewer
Yeah, yeah. And, um, I had two children who were my children in the opera. They didn't sing, but they were always around me. I go to hell in the third act and, you know, and that production I was lying on the floor at one point and the devil was on top of me, this six foot seven guy is on top. And, um, sometimes I would just sort of forget.

You know, but I would sing something that meant what I was supposed to say. And so she would give me my notes. So she'd go, I know that you, you meant to say this, but I just want to correct that this is the phrase. But she said, you sang it in French. What you're saying was the word, but let's just try to get the right words.

I said, I'm shooting for that. I'm shooting for the right words, you know, but sometimes, you know, when I forgot the words on, on the. little Irish song, you just have to have a little bit of a sense of humor.

(18:44) A. Dennis Sparger
Of course.

(18:45) Christine Brewer
You know, um, you can't quite, you can't do that, you know, in an opera where you've got the, everybody's, you know, doing their thing.

Um, one scary moment I had, um, It was in Tristan and Isolde and it was with the San Francisco Opera and we had a prompter. And I don't, and when we work with prompters in rehearsal, they always will ask you, What do you prefer? Do you want me to say the first two words of your phrase? Do you want me to, you know, they're always.

It's a little bit ahead of the beat. They have a little video camera so they can see the conductor and then they've got their stand with their music. And um, I usually just say, if I look at you, it means that I need you to say the first word. Um, but I don't usually, I don't really have to use it. 

(19:41) Ron Klemm
You haven't depended on it.

(19:41) Christine Brewer Not too much, you know. But we were in the middle of 

 Tristan and Isolde and in that second act, you know, with Tristan and Isolde, it's like, I'm the light, you're the dark, and it's singing all this. And, um, and again, it was like maybe the fourth performance, and I am just singing my heart out, you know. And I see, I see the prompter put his hand up.

And like, like press, like stop. Yeah. Stop, stop. Do you think I responded to that? I just assumed it was the tenor that he was. I know.

(20:19) A. Dennis Sparger
A good assumption. 

(20:20) Christine Brewer
I know that's really rude. 

(20:21) Ron Klemm
Yeah, that's, no, that's, no, that's perfect. 

(20:23) Christine Brewer
But I just thought.

(20:25) A. Dennis Sparger
You know what the tenor is thinking. 

(20:26) Christine Brewer
Oh my gosh. Why is he so, and then I see conductor giving me one, uh, doing this sign. So again, 

(20:36) Ron Klemm
just for, for our nonvisual listeners, you're putting your hand up like a patrolman. 

(20:42) Christine Brewer
Yeah. Yes. Like a patrol. 

(20:43) Ron Klemm
Okay. I'm sorry. Go ahead. 

(20:44) Christine Brewer
Like a traffic stop. Right. 

(20:46) Ron Klemm
Yeah. 

(20:47) Christine Brewer
And I'm like, for God's sakes, what's going on? Then, when I got close to the prompter's box in my staging, you know, the prompter pulls himself out of the box and leans over to me and goes, Stop singing!

And so I stopped and I realized then that I was about four bars ahead of everybody. But you know, when you're singing Wagner and you've got, you know, big tenor singing, but you don't hear the orchestra. 

(21:17) A. Dennis Sparger
You can't. Yes. Yeah. 

(21:19) Christine Brewer
And so then I got back on track. Okay. So. Finish the act. All's good. And, um, I was in my dressing room at the end of the opera and, um.

Donald Runicles was conducting, and he came in and he goes, Bloody hell, Christina, what were you doing? Do you know what that sign means? I said, I know what that sign means, but he said, You never get, I never get the snap, snap. If they do the snap, that means you're slow, you're dragging. Sure. I never get that sign.

Hmm. He said, Yeah, because you're usually rushing. He said, So he said, If you see this sign again. It's for you. It's like, okay. All right. All right. All right. Anyway, and it all worked out. And I don't think that the audience probably noticed it. I don't think I don't know. 

(22:10) Ron Klemm:
But you can't look back. 

(22:12) Christine Brewer
No.

(22:13) Ron Klemm:
It's done.

(22:13) Christine Brewer
It's done. And that's the thing. I try to tell students to, um, And especially if I'm doing a master class, I try to keep a little humor in and I can tell when sometimes a student has something that's got a high note or something and they, they kind of tense up and I said, well, you know what, let's just, just sing it.

Just let it loose. Just sing it. Tell that story. Oh, I don't know. I'm kind of nervous about that high A. Okay. I said, well, what's the worst thing that could happen? Well, I could crack on it. Huh, I said, will anybody die? Well, no, no. I said, you know, my daughter's a nurse. And if she would give the wrong medicine to someone, there, there's a possibility that the patient could be injured or die. But I said, in our profession, nobody's going to die if you crack on a high note. And sometimes it helps the student kind of loosen up. 

(23:12) A. Dennis Sparger
Some of these things can just happen.

(23:13) Christine Brewer
They happen. 

I, I was sitting one time, I wanted to, I was in San Francisco and I wanted to sit in on a dress rehearsal of Capriccio or something, something that I wasn't in.

I was there doing something else and I was sitting there and it was a lot of their patrons were sitting there, allowed to come into the final dress. 

(23:31) Ron Klemm:
Open rehearsal. 

(23:33) Christine Brewer
And there were a couple gentlemen behind me. Not really whispering, they were talking before it started and they got to talking about Jesse Norman and I thought, Oh, no, not Jesse Norman, Leontyne Price.

(23:45) Ron Klemm:
Oh yeah. 

(23:46) Christine Brewer
And I thought, Oh gosh, I love Leontyne Price's voice. They start talking about, well, I was at Carnegie Hall in 1965 when, and I thought, Oh, they're gonna tell some really cool story and she cracked on a high note. And the next one, Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And then they start just grousing about that. Okay, do you think that I could have just minded my own business.

(24:12) Ron Klemm: No.

(24:12) Christine Brewer No. So I turned around and I said, I'm sorry, you gentlemen are talking loud enough that I heard what you said. And is that all you've got to say about that wonderful Leontyne Price, probably one of the best singers ever. That is, I said, that is really shameful. And then I turned around. And then I could hear him going, Oh, that's Christine Brewer.

And so I thought, well, they're probably going to be talking about me now, you know, but I just thought really? So really, I don't think people really remember those moments, and if they do, get a hobby. 

(24:48) Ron Klemm:
Yes. That would be a nice way of saying it, but yeah, if that's what you focus on, I feel sorry for people like that.

(24:58) Christine Brewer
Yes.

(26:11) Ron Klemm:
From The Bach Society archives, the duet From Bach's Cantata 63, Christen, ätzet diesen Tag christine Brewer, soprano, along with bass baritone David Berger. Taken from the radio broadcast of the Bach Society's Christmas Candlelight Concert in Powell Hall back in 1990. By the way. You want to hear something funny?

Listen to the announcer.
The Bach Society of St. Louis presenting Bach's  Cantata No. 63, Christians Mark You All This Day. The soloists, soprano Christine Brewer, mezzo soprano Rhonda McPhee, tenor William Burden, and baritone David Berger. Dr. A. Dennis Sparger led the Bach Society Chorus and Orchestra. This cantata probably composed for Christmas in 1714 when Bach was still in Weimar.

Sounds a lot like my much younger brother. Anyway, more with Christine in just a moment. This is Bach Talk.

(27:40) A. Dennis Sparger
You were talking about your work with students. Since we're both subscribers to BBC Music Magazine, we both have been reading over the last few years some of the editorials about what's happening with music education in England. That apparently an incredible long running history of music in the schools now is beginning to disintegrate.

And, of course, we see some of this happening here, um, yet you still are able to find very fine young students in your work, especially at Webster University. Um, do you have some comments to make about what's happening with our music programs in this country? 

(28:24) Christine Brewer
I, it's very sad. I mean, I only taught one year.

I taught K through 12 music down in Marissa. There were three schools, two elementary schools, and then the high school. And, um, and then I did a program called Opera Tunities, the students named it that. Well after I had taught there, their sixth grade teacher invited me to come. Well, she actually invited me,

she said, we're doing some geography, and I wanted to just, she said, I read your travelogues that you send, you know, and I thought this might be fun for the kids. Where in the world is Miss Brewer? And I was gonna put a map up and I said, well, could I come and talk to the kids? And this developed into about a 15 year thing, you know, um, and it wasn't a music class.

She was a sixth grade teacher, but those kids got to come to rehearsals at the symphony, you know, whatever I was singing, that's what we would discuss, you know? Um, but it is, it is a shame. I know some of the school systems, I don't know if their budget, they can't afford to have music. I don't know. Um, a lot of schools will sort of have a little tiny music department or, uh, and then some schools.

My, my grandson Oscar is in the Afton schools and they have band and orchestra and choir and you know. 

(29:46) A. Dennis Sparger
Wonderful. 

(29:47) Christine Brewer
So that's good. But I don't know. I don't know how to address it I I think a lot of people don't think that it's important, but those of us who know Music know that if you study an instrument and study and learn to read music It will help your reading skills. It will help your math skills. 

(30:06) A. Dennis Sparger
Yeah. And, and a lot of those reports have been available for 35, 40, 45 years.

(30:11) Ron Klemm:
It's out there. 

(30:12) Christine Brewer
Yes. 

(30:12) A. Dennis Sparger
The information is there. 

(30:14) Christine Brewer
Yes. 

(30:14) A. Dennis Sparger
And, and still the people who make these decisions in schools don't see that their students can benefit so much from having a musical background.

(30:24) Christine Brewer
Yeah. I, I, I will tell you one little story. That happened with the Opera Tunities group. And as we grew, I started bringing a couple members from the St. Louis Symphony to play and talk to the kids about their, you know, growing up in music and David Robertson became involved. Um. And he allowed the kids to come to one closed rehearsal.

And when we did, um, the War Requiem by Benjamin Britten, I thought, Oh man, I hope the kids will get this. So I had recorded it in London and I gave a recording to my friend, Nancy Wagner, who was a sixth grade teacher, and she said she would just play one movement a day when the kids were in the classroom just so they kind of got used to the music.

(31:11) A. Dennis Sparger
And the sound of it. Yeah. 

(31:13) Christine Brewer
And I would always before, you know, before I did Fidelio with the symphony or before I did, you know, War Requiem, I would go to the school a couple days before they were going to come to the rehearsal. And just, if you have questions. Ask me now when you go to the rehearsal. It's not like a performance.

They may start at the end. They may start here. You can't applaud, you know, it's just a rehearsal So anyway, so I get there and she had all and it wasn't a big class. There were two sixth grade classes, maybe 50 kids. We're in a big circle and They have their little questions. And this one boy, I will never forget this, he raised his hand and he said, you know that one part of the War Requiem, where, um, Abraham and Isaac, do you know that part?

I said, yeah. Well, you know that's not the real story that's in the Bible. I said, yes, I do know that. I do know that. I said, why, why do you think that the poet decided to write it that way? Now, I'm, the whole time, I'm watching Nancy, you know, she's just standing behind these kids, and this boy says, well, we were talking about it at lunch the other day.

(32:22) Ron Klemm:
Great! 

(32:23) Christine Brewer
And I'm like, oh, okay. And then he said, now these are 12-year-old kids, and I asked him why he thought Wilford Owen Who wrote the text had changed that story. He said, well, we were talking about it at lunch the other day. And here's what we thought. We thought that Abraham was supposed to represent the old men who start the wars and Isaac represented the young men who were killed in wars. And I thought these kids get this and at that time, there were a lot of these kids whose siblings. We're in, um, fighting in Afghanistan and, you know, and I always gave them my email address and, um, and one girl wrote me an email one night, and she said, I can't sleep.

My brother's, you know, he's fighting in a war and I don't know what to do. And I wrote her back on the email and I said, do you have his email address? Because you're such a good writer. I bet he'd love to just hear from you, you know, and those kinds of things happen when kids are involved in music. If we say, oh, well that, oh, we're not going to take that kid to see the War Requiem when they won't understand it.

(33:35) A. Dennis Sparger
They won't understand. 

(33:36) Christine Brewer
You know? And I think sometimes we underestimate what the kids are available, you know, able to do. 

(33:44) Ron Klemm:
You did an interview with somebody and I don't remember the context, but you said something that we will often say when it comes to great music and why it's important to go, just as you said, to go to hear a piece, whether you think you are in love with that particular composer or that piece or whatever.

Someone will be hearing this piece for the very first time, right? And, and so we get it, of course, that's why it's so important to do what we do. But then you added this and someone, and someone may be hearing it for the last time. 

(34:24) Christine Brewer
Yeah, yeah. 

(34:27) Ron Klemm:
Does your perspective change as you as we get older? 

(34:30) Christine Brewer
I don't know. 

(34:31) Ron Klemm:
I'm sorry.

(34:33) Christine Brewer
Thanks, Ron. I didn't know I was gonna cry on this. Actually, I first heard that. Um, when I sang. Uh, with Robert Shaw, he said that to me before we walked on stage and he said it to the other soloists and it just stuck with me. And I try to think about that every time, whether it's, Oh, I'll tell you another Four Last Songs or it's another, whatever.

(35:05) Ron Klemm:
You can't phone it in. 

(35:07) Christine Brewer
No, no, no, no, no. And, and I say this to students too. I, I, I've, I'm such a nerd. Um, I've, I've kept track of every time I've sung Strauss' Four Last Songs in the front cover of my score and I've passed a hundred performancesa couple years ago. And I did my last ones I did were up at the with the Elgin Symphony for their 75th anniversary.

It was a couple years ago. And, um, and I say this to students, I said, you know, sometimes we sing pieces that we love. And, um, but you don't ever want to just let it become automatic or Oh, yeah, I know how this goes. Because your life changes every day. And Your life experience informs how you're going to tell the story and I still remember I wanted to sing the four last songs. The first time I heard him was at St.

Louis Symphony with Heather Harper. Oh sure, and I just was blown away It was so beautiful. And so I went to my next voice lesson I was about 18 and I had bought a score and I brought it in to Mr. Freiner And, and I will never forget, he looked at the score and he said, yes, these are beautiful, beautiful songs and you will sing these someday. He said, but you're not ready to sing them now. I would suggest for the next 20 years, you study the poems and, and then perform them. And I almost, it was not quite 20 years. Cause I was about 18 when I was 30. However many years that would have been, I did sing them first time in Bournemouth.

And he was so right because my, my whole view of those songs changed over my life and they're different now than they were when I was 30, you know? And so that's the exciting thing about making music. You bring your life experience each time you sing it. So it's not like I want to make sure I sing that high G like I sang it last time. You know, that's boring. That's boring. But make it Fit what your life expresses now, you know? 

(37:21) Ron Klemm:
You're doing what you were called to do. What is your thought about calling? Whether it's being a broadcaster or nowadays a podcaster. 

(37:32) Christine Brewer
Right, right. 

(37:33) Ron Klemm:
Or what, what, why is calling important? Or what's your, what's your sense of what that means?

(37:42) Christine Brewer
Well, as my mom would say, You were born with this talent, whatever you want to call it, gift, but how you use it is so important. And, um, I guess I feel responsible. Do you know, I feel 

(38:01) Ron Klemm:
To whom? To me, to an audience, to God? 

(38:06) Christine Brewer
To all of the above. Yeah. So that I'm not just casually, you know, Oh yeah, I got another gig on this.

It's no big deal. Do you know, every, I try to get to a point where everything is really meaningful and special for me. And for me, I usually, if, if I'm planning like a recital or something, I really go through the texts. I'm most, um, drawn to the poems that I really like. And then, then it's like, oh, how did Schubert set that?

Oh, how did Joseph Marx set that? You know? And does it fit me? Does it? And there are some things that fit and some things that don't. And You know, um, I was offered a lot of things early on in my career, which I just didn't feel like it would work, you know, and, um, And I guess I've said this thing about, you know, this is my mom's, you know, this is your gift and you have to use it a certain way.

I heard Oscar, my grandson when he was about seven, tell somebody, he said, you know, I think God blessed me to be an athlete to be a first baseman and a slugger. I mean, he's telling us, and he said, but you know what? It's on me to be, to practice and to make it work or whatever. I mean, and Ross said, he's just heard you say this a lot when you lecture your students or whatever.

But you know what? I think we all do have certain gifts that we're given and I don't know, I think it's important to find those gifts. I think one of my gifts is also, I like to communicate. Well, I can communicate through singing, but I can also communicate with people, chatting with them, talking, you know, um, I helped start a community dinner in our town.

We're on our third year. We thought we would just get like, you know, we'll do it for the summer. You know, we had like 25 people the first one. We're serving like a hundred people and, and we have different themes and people are like, no, wait, when is the taco night? Okay. What night is the, you know, whatever.

So I mean, I think we have to find gifts and, and, and then live them. I really do. 

(40:26) A. Dennis Sparger
And we can bring people together so much through our musical performances. 

(40:31) Christine Brewer
Yes! Yes! 

(40:32) A. Dennis Sparger
That, uh, they're all responding to the same stimulus. 

(40:37) Christine Brewer
Yeah. 

(40:37) Ron Klemm:
Even though they come from different places. 

(40:40) Christine Brewer
Well, and have you found too.

(40:41) A. Dennis Sparger
And they're drawn together closer as a community.

(40:44) Christine Brewer
Have you found when people have heard a performance you've done and they'll say something that they thought was so amazingly spectacular and it was, and then you think, wow, and maybe you didn't feel that same way, you know. I love that because each person is experiencing it with their life experience, you know, and yeah, it's, it's really, I love it. I love it. 

(41:12) Ron Klemm:
Well, I wish we could have gotten you out of your shell just a little bit more. 

Thank you. Thank you so much for just opening up and just chatting with us. Thank you. This is fun. Do I have to stop the tape? Because we're going to talk for hours. 

(41:28) Christine Brewer
I know. And you made me feel 

(41:31) Ron Klemm:
I said tape. Can you believe how old I am?

(41:33) Christine Brewer
Well, I know. And I knew what you meant. But, but just, you both made this very easy and relaxed. And that's Thank you for that. 

(41:44) Ron Klemm:
That's one of the top 20 soprano.

(41:48) A. Dennis Sparger
Yes. 

(41:48) Ron Klemm:
Okay, never mind. I'm off on that now. 

(41:50) Christine Brewer
Oh, whatever. 

(41:51) Ron Klemm
That's my friend Christine Brewer, and along with Bach Society music director and conductor Dennis Sparger, I'm Ron Klemm and this is Bach Talk.

From a Christmas Candlelight Concert at Powell Hall in 2017, Mack Wilberg's arrangement of Oh Holy Night, Dennis Sparger leading The Bach Society Chorus and Orchestra, the soprano Christine Brewer. You can download that and all the other tracks from The Bach Society's album Joy to the World. Go to BachSociety.org and click on watch and listen. Remember now, we want to answer your questions for me, for Maestro Sparger, for any of our past guests. Take a moment, right now, contact us with your questions. Go to BachSociety.org, click on Bach Talk. There's a simple form that you can use to ask your question. Or if you prefer, send me an email directly, BachTalk@BachSociety.org.

The associate producer of BachTalk is Scott MacDonald. Special thanks, of course, to Christine Brewer and Dennis Sparger, The Bach Society's recording engineer for our performance excerpts. is Paul Henrick. Additional assistance provided by Andie Murphy and Charissa Marcinia.

Bach Talk is a registered trademark of The Bach Society of Saint Louis. I'm Ron Klemm. 

About Episode 18

Grammy Award-winning soprano Christine Brewer takes us on a journey from her roots in Southern Illinois to commanding the stages of the world's most prestigious opera houses and concert halls. Join Ron Klemm and A. Dennis Sparger on Bach Talk as they chat about her influences, her commitment to storytelling and the role family plays in her career.

Transcription

Ron Klemm (0:00)
This is Bach Talk.

Christine Brewer (0:16)
I was fortunate that I had a teacher who didn't push me vocally and just taught me how to tell a story, and this is what I try to do with the students. I said, your job is to tell a story, whatever song you're singing, whatever language it's in, you better know it well enough that you can tell the story.

Ron Klemm (1:08)
The town may go by a different name, but the similarities are striking. The beauty, the calm, the smiles and the voice of the town's storyteller is unmistakable.

Christine Brewer (1:39)
I'm not saying disregard your technique, but when you're actually performing, you don't need to be thinking about technique. You need to just be thinking about how I'm gonna say this story.

Ron Klemm (2:11)
Hello, I'm Ron Klemm. Welcome to Bach Talk. Sometimes, when we sit down for these conversations, we know only a little about our guest, and over the course of the conversation, we learn much more about them, about their lives, their work, and as the case may be, their connection to Bach and to The Bach Society of Saint Louis. Other times we know the person well, extremely well in this case. Soprano Christine Brewer has sung with The Bach Society no fewer than 10 times by our count, and that is no accident. The girl from the quaint, small southern Illinois town you've never heard of became an international sensation with performing credits in major opera houses and concert halls around the globe. The Grammy Award winner is featured on more than two dozen recordings, many with the world's finest orchestras and conductors. But perhaps even more impressive than all of that is the way Christine Brewer gives back to the community she loves. And so it was a genuine joy for Bach Society music director and conductor Dennis Sparger, and me, to sit down with Christine in the Sparger's breakfast room. We talked for hours about old times and new. Let's eavesdrop on some of that conversation right now.

The Bach Society makes a big deal about something that appeared in BBC Music Magazine, when someone from London came here and heard our Christmas Candlelight Concert, and then not too long after that, proclaimed The Bach Society's Candlelight Concert, Christmas Candlelight Concert, one of the top 20 Christmas events in North America. Is that right? Do I have that right?

A. Dennis Sparger (4:08)
That's correct. Yes, you have that right.

Ron Klemm (4:09)
And we just think that's the best. Now, if we were to go back in the BBC Music archives a little farther, we would find a list of the top 20 sopranos of all time. And lo and behold, right on that list with all these incredible names, is our neighbor, Christine Brewer, wow. How did that happen?

Christine Brewer (4:32)
I don't know. I got a call from my manager in London, Peter Bloor, and he said, he said, you might want to, you know, and I subscribe to the BBC Magazine, you know, you might want to check out the next month's issue. And by the way, there's going to be a little program here in London. And he gave me the date, do you think you could come and maybe say something? And I said, well, what did I do? And he said, well, they've listed you as one of the time. Top 20 sopranos of all time. And of course, I thought he was just lying to me. 

Ron Klemm (5:05)
You thought he was pulling your leg. 

Christine Brewer (5:07)
I said, come on. Oh, come on. I mean, there were lots of times, though, that he would call me about something, and I would just say, okay, is this true? Is this really true? He called when the Royal Opera House had renovation, and when they reopened, he called, and he said, they would like for you and Placido Domingo also will be there to sing for the reopening of the Royal Opera House in Covent Garden. I said, Okay, April Fools, right? He said, no. I said, really, aren't they going to have some, you know, some folks from your country there? Yes, there will be some, but they want you there. And I'm like, really? I mean, it took me about 15 minutes to believe so, yes, quite often I was surprised by these things.

Ron Klemm (5:51)
Why do you think that is? Is it because of your upbringing, or is it just a natural reaction that, oh, I can't possibly be that good.

Christine Brewer (6:03)
I think it probably was partly from my upbringing. I grew up in a really small community. My mom was a fabulous singer, and she, she had me when she was a teenager. You know, she and my dad got married quite young, and she always sang. And the people in her little town of McClure, Illinois, population, I don't know, three or 400 people wanted to send her to some kind of music school, but she, she, she got married before she finished her senior year in high school. My dad was in the army, and she stayed home, you know, they got married, and she stayed home and finished high school, but she she didn't want to, and then she had three kids, all, you know, pretty quickly, but that voice was amazing. She thought that I sang a little bit out of tune when I was a little girl. So she talked to some man in our church about it, and he was a violinist and also made violins, and he said, she needs to learn how to play an instrument like a violin, because it will help her ear. So that's what we did. And I loved it. I loved playing the violin. And my brothers still joke about, you know, yeah, they called me Christy. Christy was always in her bedroom practicing that violin, you know, and mom would have to tell her to stop and go, go outside and play for a while. I loved it, but it was probably the best thing that could have happened. But having said all that, my mom never studied music professionally, didn't know how to read music, but she had this glorious kind of sound. And I used to, when I would do recitals in St. Louis, have her come up and sing a couple things, spirituals or something, with me at the end of the recital. And one time, my voice teacher at the time, was Stephen Smith. He was in the audience, and he saw me at my next lesson, and he said, you know, I have a lot of students who tell me, my mom sings, my dad's a singer, my uncle's a singer. He said, but, and he just was speechless for a couple seconds, and he said, I've never heard a voice like that. He said, if your mom would have chosen the path that you're on. I said, I know, I know she would already be there. He said, yes, but Mom always said to me, and we were we went to the little Southern Baptist Church in McClure, about 30 miles from where we live. Well, we lived in McClure for a while, but Grand Tower.

Ron Klemm (8:37)
Which is on the eastern banks of the Mississippi River, about what 20 minutes south of where we're sitting right now? Maybe a little farther?

Christine Brewer (8:45)
A little further, it takes about a couple hours to get there. 

Ron Klemm (8:47)
Okay, okay.

Christine Brewer (8:48)
But it's right on the river and but we went to this little church in McClure where my dad had gone. My dad was a deacon there. His brother was a Southern Baptist pastor. We had uncles who were Pentecost pastors. It was a very tight little religious community, but my mom would always say, she would point to my throat, and she'd go, you have nothing to do with that. She said, that comes from God. Now how you use it? How you use your voice is on you. She said that to me. It was ingrained in my head. And then she would go with me to these violin competitions, and I would, I would get a first place. But on the way home, she would comment on, do you know, in that second movement, I thought that you were, maybe you were a little nervous, but it didn't sound as clear as the first. I mean, she didn't talk about, you know, but it was just what she heard. And later on, when she started coming to see me in operas, quite often she would, you know, she came to London to see me. She and my dad came to London to see at Covent Garden, Marriage of Figaro, yeah. And after, you know, the next day, she said, Well, you sounded beautiful, but she said, I just didn't feel like you were always singing from your heart. And I remember just thinking, what? What? What is she talking about? And it really wasn't till she was dying. She had ALS sometimes called Lou Gehrig's disease, and she got it in her late 50s, so she was quite young, and we would sit and talk, because she was able to plan what she wanted done and what not done.

Ron Klemm (10:37)
Sure. 

Christine Brewer (10:38)
And one day we were just sitting chatting, and I said, Mom, why were you always so hard on me? You know about, you know, I didn't think you played that second movement the way it should have sounded, or you didn't sing with your heart and and she said, well, because I didn't know what to say, but I didn't ever want you to think you didn't have to keep practicing. And honest to god, I think that is why I am just, you know, whenever I've got an opera coming up, and I'm doing one in the spring at the Spoleto Festival in Charleston, and I've sung Turn of the Screw. I've sung with Mrs. Gross before, but I've already got the score out, and I'm making sure that I've still got it in my memory. I mean, I think that instilled in me that kind of, you know, preparation.

A. Dennis Sparger (11:31)
The preparation, yeah.

Christine Brewer (11:32)
Yeah.

A. Dennis Sparger (11:32)
Just have to continue to do it. 

Christine Brewer (11:34)
And, and she was, she sang in a trio with two other gals that were, they all started it in high school, and they called it the Shawnee trio, because we all went to Shawnee High School, and they sang gospel and jazz, and I grew up sitting in on their rehearsals, and if one of them wasn't there, I'd sing their part. You know, yes, yeah, so I think that's a long answer to your question, but, but anyway, so when those kind of awards happen, I always feel like I feel blessed that they happen. But it's not like I think, yeah, I deserve that. You know, I don't think that.

A. Dennis Sparger (12:14)
It does come as a surprise.

Christine Brewer (12:15)
It does, it does. Yeah.

A. Dennis Sparger (12:17)
And I think another thing that this tells us is that you don't have to have all of these years of training in music and college degrees. Some people can listen very intently, and they understand what's going on, and they do have comments to make, they can help a performer improve.

Christine Brewer (12:34)
Absolutely, absolutely. And I didn't ever take a voice lesson until I went to college. I sang all the time. I don't remember ever not performing. Now, my family says the first time I performed at church, I was three, and I sang, Go Tell it On the Mountain. And I'm the oldest of the three kids and my brothers, when they started to get older, they said my mom would teach us songs that we would sing at church. Now, my brother Steve sang in his church choir for quite some time, and I think he still does occasionally. 

Ron Klemm (13:10)
Is that right? 

Christine Brewer (13:10)
Uh, Jeff, you know, sings for fun, you know, if we get together and, you know, maybe sing something but, but they didn't get the bug like I did, you know.

Ron Klemm (13:50)
My grandfather sang the blues like nobody you've ever heard. She says, so maybe it's in my genes. Christine Brewer talking about Come Rain or Come Shine from St. Louis Woman, words by Johnny Mercer, music by Harold Arlen, from a recording made in 1993 to benefit Opera Theater of St. Louis. Christine, our St. Louis woman was accompanied by pianist Kirt Pavitt.

I want to take a moment to tell you about some exciting news regarding Bach Talk. We're going to spend some time in the near future answering your questions, whether it's a question for our music director and conductor Dennis Sparger, for me or any of our Bach staff. We want to know what it is, and we will answer it the best way we can, and since we stay in contact with all of our guests, if you're listening today, or if you've listened to a previous episode and thought I wonder what he or she meant by that, or I wish those guys would have asked about thus and so just tell me what it is. I promise we'll get in touch with that guest and answer the question for you. We have an easy way for you to do that, just go to bachsociety.org and click on the Bach Talk page. There, you'll find a simple form that you can use to ask your question, or if you'd rather, email us directly, bachtalk@bachsociety.org. Your silence is not golden. I look forward to hearing from you.

More of our conversation with Christine Brewer, straight ahead with Dennis Sparger. I'm Ron Klemm and this is Bach Talk. 

Ron Klemm (15:34)
You brought up the fact that music is a gift, right, and that a talent is something that you are blessed with, but you have to do something with it in order to make it work. 

Christine Brewer (15:48)
That's right.

Ron Klemm (15:49)
Which is more important? Or are good singers born, or are they made? Or is it always a combination of both? Can you train anyone? Can you train me, for example, to be a world renowned top 20 baritone?

Christine Brewer (16:05)
I'm going to plead the fifth.

Ron Klemm (16:07)
Thank goodness.

Christine Brewer (16:09)
I did have, I graduated from college when I was quite young. I was 17 when I graduated from high school, and in this little high school that I attended, Shawnee High School down in Wolf Lake, Illinois, they ran out of classes for me my senior year because I'd taken all the, you know, trigonometry, physics, chemistry, I mean, so they had me. I was taking college courses. I would just sit in the math teachers class, and I took so many courses in psychology and math and science that by the time I started college, I was a second semester sophomore. And so when I graduated from college, I was 20, and my voice wasn't really developed very much, thankfully. And Dennis, you, you know.

A. Dennis Sparger (17:02)
I do.

Christine Brewer (17:02)
Dr. Glenn Freiner very well. He was the head of the music department, and he was a voice professor and the organ professor, and I was in the choir because I was going to go into music education. And he said, I think you, you know, should take some voice lessons. And I said, what's wrong with my voice? I mean, that's how ignorant this little 17 year old was, because I thought, well, maybe it was like because there was a problem he needed to, no he said, I think you might want to make that part of your major. Oh, okay, sure. So thankfully, he heard this small voice, and he knew that he said to me later, I always could hear that you would be singing Strauss and Wagner someday. 

Ron Klemm (17:46)
Wow.

Christine Brewer (17:47)
But he said I wasn't going to have you sing in arias when you were 17, 18, 19 years old. I sang lots of Mozart concert arias. I sang lots of Handel, Purcell, Schubert, Hugo Wolf, lots of art songs, lots of French melodies, stuff like that.

Ron Klemm (18:05)
Lieder and things like that. 

Christine Brewer (18:06)
Yes, absolutely.

Dennis Sparger (18:07)
And we know you sang a lot of Bach.

Christine Brewer (18:09)
And a lot of Bach. It was all that stuff. And then there were a couple students at McKendree when I was there who were singing arias, you know. And I remember one day I went into my lesson, I said, well, how come you're letting her sing? She's singing something from La Boheme and and she's not even a voice major. She's a science major, and she's just taking, he said, because her voice has developed a little bit sooner than yours. And this is a thing I tell students at Webster when I work with them, everybody's path, everybody's journey, is is unique, and many of us, especially the bigger voices, start out rather light, and then they grow. If you have a teacher that pushes you too soon to start pushing into those bigger roles, your voice won't hold up for it. And I've through the years, sometimes I go someplace and I sing, and they'll ask me, can you come and do a master class? Or can you teach? We've got a, my two least favorite words, a baby Wagnerian and and I had a young woman, and I would never say something like this in front of a master class, but it was just this young woman and her pianist and me, and she walked in the room, and she said she was going to sing Dich, teure Halle from Tannhäuser I said, okay. And she started singing, and I could hear already sort of damage in her voice, so I stopped her, and I said, do you have anything else you know, any Mozart or any, you know? Oh, no, my teacher says, I'm going to be a Wagnerian Verdi singer. I'm going to so I asked how old she was. She was 23 and I said, truthfully, I hear some some damage, and I think you probably need to see an ENT and I think you need to stop singing and get your voice healthy, and then maybe approach with some, you know, lighter things, some Baroque things, some you know, and I don't know what ever happened, but it's, it's something. I was fortunate that I had a teacher who didn't push me vocally and just taught me how to tell a story, and this is what I try to do with the students at Webster. I said, your job is to tell a story. Whatever song you're singing, whatever language it's in, you better know it well enough that you can tell the story. And I mean, yes, I'm not saying disregard your technique. But when you're actually performing, you don't need to be thinking about technique. You need to just be thinking about how I'm going to say this story.

Ron Klemm (20:50)
Just a portion of Benjamin Britten’s arrangement of Thomas Moore’s The Last Rose of summer from Groves of Blarney. Christine Brewer, accompanied by pianist Kirt Pavitt in a recording made in Powell Hall back in 1999. More with Christine in a moment. This is Bach Talk. 

Ron Klemm (22:23)
You still live in Southern Illinois, not too far from where you grew up.

Christine Brewer (22:28)
Yeah.

Ron Klemm (22:29)
I don't, I don't know. I don't want to be presumptuous, but it would seem to me that you could live anywhere in the world and you could be just fine. So that staying here, close to home is a choice.

Christine Brewer (22:42)
Absolutely.

Ron Klemm (22:43)
Tell me about that. 

Christine Brewer (22:44)
When I did start pursuing this career, and, you know, giving contracts to sing operas and being in London for two months, or San Francisco or LA or New York, a lot of times, my managers sometimes would say, you know, you ought to just move to New York. I said, well, that's not going to work for me. My husband's a teacher in Freeburg, Illinois.

Ron Klemm (23:11)
Give a shout out to Ross now, come on.

Christine Brewer (23:13)
Woot woot. But my voice, and Dennis, I mean, you, you met me when I was first starting out.

A. Dennis Sparger (23:20)
Sure.

Christine Brewer (23:20)
It did not really develop. I was in my late 20s when I had my daughter Elizabeth, and that's when I started to notice my voice getting bigger, right? So I really, up to that point, wasn't doing a lot of opera or anything, you know, and I was teaching. I taught in Marissa, Illinois, in a little coal mining town. I taught there for a year, and then I was a substitute teacher for, I don't know, seven years or something. And I sang as a soloist at St. Michael and St. George Episcopal Church in St Louis. You know. So I had little jobs at the St. Louis Symphony paid me as one of the section leaders, you know. So I had little gigs here and there, but because I waited till it was later and I already had a child, my husband was established in a job. My folks lived a couple hours away. His folks lived a half an hour away from us, and we had lots of friends in Lebanon.

Ron Klemm (24:21)
Lebanon, Illinois.

Christine Brewer (24:22)
Illinois, yes, yes. And so I just felt like I was pretty central. I could be in Chicago in an hour. I could be in New York in an hour and a half or two, be on the west coast in four hours. It felt like a good place to stay, and I knew that Elizabeth was in good hands with Ross and with our neighbors, and now she did travel with me, and even one of the trips I took her to London and we stayed in an apartment that I rented quite often that was right over a beautiful Indian restaurant. The food was so great, you could smell it, and it was about a 10 minute walk to the opera house, so it was really convenient for me.

A. Dennis Sparger (25:09)
Covent Garden area?

Christine Brewer (25:10)
Yes, yes. And there were lots of shops along the way. So on the way home from rehearsal, I could stop and, you know, pick up some dinner stuff, you know, well, Elizabeth got to know the area really well. She was eight. I can remember this so clearly. And there were some evenings we'd finish our dinner and stuff, and then we'd do her school work, and that's back in the days of fax machines. And I'd fax the stuff back home to Ross, and he'd drop it off at school for her, and then she'd say, could we, could I just go down and get some garlic naan, right now.

Ron Klemm (25:46)
That sounds good.

Christine Brewer (25:47)
I know. And she would just go downstairs, and they knew her. I mean, we were in there enough, and I knew she was safe. And she'd go down and she'd bring it back up, you know. And then my parents came to visit, and they rented an apartment that was a maybe a mile from us. And so there were days when I had rehearsal, they had things they wanted to do. It was their first time to London. They had things they wanted to see. And Elizabeth said, I can take them on the tube. I mean, I can take them around eight years old. I said, really?

A. Dennis Sparger (26:22)
And she knew her way around?

Christine Brewer (26:23)
She did. And she said, now one thing dad has told me, when you're traveling, you don't take your map out, because then people think you're a tourist. You figure it out before you go. And so I'm like, okay, so they would take off. They went to the Tower of London, they went to, I mean, they did all of this stuff while I was at rehearsal. I'd come home, my mom would fix some dinner for us, you know. And then once the performances started, she came with my parents to the one that they came to, and then they had to fly home, then they were on there for about a week or two. And then we had a long run. And it was a Marriage of Figaro with no cuts. 

Ron Klemm (27:05)
That's a long.

Christine Brewer (27:06)
Four hours long, right? 

Ron Klemm (27:07)
Yeah.

Christine Brewer (27:08)
So I had someone who could watch her. I had a nanny who could watch her, but she said, oh no, I want to see all the performances. I said, Honey, it's a long night. That's really a long time. She said, no, here's what I do. She said, each night I just look at one character, like one night, I will just look at Bryn Terfel. He was singing Figaro, just gonna look at him. One night. I just watched Susanna. That was Sylvia McNair. And then I just want you. I said, even if we're not singing, yes, because I want to see how you're reacting to I'm like, Really, okay. I said, Well, you don't have to go, oh no. So I would take her to the opera house, and the usher would take her up to this place where she always sat, and God love her. She she did that. She took my parents around. Then she came back one time. She was, I think, just out of college, and then we had a nice little apartment, and she would, we'd have breakfast together, and then she would just take off on the train and go to different places around

Ron Klemm (28:17)
By this time, you knew she was just, she was going to be independent.

Christine Brewer (28:21)
She did that all the time. And then Paris, the same thing. I do remember one time we were talking about this the other night, Ross said, what did we ever do before we had cell phones? And I said, Well, I'll tell you one story that was scary for me. He was in Germany with his students on a trip, and he was coming to meet Elizabeth and me in Paris. And I was singing at the Châtelet, which is right on the Seine River. And Elizabeth was, I think maybe she might have been still in high school, or close to graduation, 17, 18, maybe, and, and I was doing Ariadne for like, the 10,000th time, you know. And she said, Well, do you mind if I just, you know, wander around the neighborhood, you know, and I'll meet you back here, when do you finish? I said, Five o'clock. Okay, so I'm waiting for at the stage door at five o'clock. She's not there. She's not there. I didn't know, really, what to do. I thought I don't want to leave and go back to our apartment, because I'm not sure, she's supposed to come here.

Ron Klemm (29:27)
Be honest, Mom, did you freak out?

Christine Brewer (29:29)
A little bit, yes. And it was springtime, you know it was the weather was nice, thankfully wasn't raining. And she got there about maybe 45 minutes later. And I said, what happened? She said, I did not realize how difficult it was to navigate these streets, because, you know, they aren't straight

Ron Klemm (29:53)
The old cow paths, yeah, yeah.

Christine Brewer (29:55)
And the names change and she said, but I remember. Heard that if I could get to the river, I remembered that your opera house is on the and she said, so I just kept walking. And she knew a little French, so she did ask people, and so she just kept walking till she found it. But oh my gosh, I was I was so nervous. But you know what? It made her a very independent person. And there are times, and I talk about this with a lot of my other friends who are moms, there are times that I thought, should I be leaving for two or three months, leaving my daughter at home? Because at a certain point, she didn't want to go, yes? 

Ron Klemm (30:36)
Well, sure.

Christine Brewer (30:37)
You know, she had, she played in sports, she played in the band, you know, and, and in the summer, we all traveled together, which was really nice, but, you know, but I always had these doubts in the back of my mind, you know, I'm missing this, I'm missing that, or, or when I did turn down a job because I was staying I'm then I'm thinking, oh, should I have done that? Was that a bad move? And, and sometimes I'd have, you know one of my managers, and I won't ever mention the name, would say, well, you're going to ruin your career if you don't take this I said, Well, I only got one chance with my daughter, so.

A. Dennis Sparger (31:10)
Yes.

Christine Brewer (31:11)
Let it go.

A. Dennis Sparger (31:12)
And that's more important.

Christine Brewer (31:13)
It is.

Ron Klemm (31:13)
And that's what I heard out of all of that, which was family helped shape who Christine Brewer is.

Christine Brewer (31:21)
Totally.

Ron Klemm (31:22)
And, that, yeah, that means everything.

A. Dennis Sparger (31:24)
Well, what we didn't cover is, in all of these trips, do you have time to do the sightseeing?

Christine Brewer (31:30)
No, I mean, I do like, I mean, when you're rehearsing an opera, it's six days a week, so on the one day you're off, you find yourself doing laundry, you know, doing your errands that you need to do, or go through your score and, you know, making sure. Yeah, so And Ross, God love him. You know, being the he taught social studies. He never used a textbook. He taught eighth grade. He taught history through music and art and language. So the kids would read books, whatever they were studying. They would read novels about it. They would study the music that was going on and the art that was going on. He would bring in Holocaust survivors to speak to his eighth graders. He would bring in authors to come and talk about their books and that sort of thing. So when he and he always, I always had my schedule a year or two in advance, he'd look through and he'd go, oh, Madrid. Are you taking Elizabeth to Madrid? I said, Well, yeah, because school will be out. And so okay, he would start a little box by his desk at the office at our house, and he would just throw articles from, I don't know, National Geographic or different magazines.

A. Dennis Sparger (32:44)
He knew where to find them.

Christine Brewer (32:46)
And honest to God, if Ross were here, he could tell you where certain paintings are, which museum they're in. So he made a list of things that Elizabeth and I could do while we were in Madrid. Well, we did most of it, but I couldn't do it all because I said, actually, I'm rehearsing.

A. Dennis Sparger (33:03)
He'd have more than enough. 

Christine Brewer (33:04)
So she but then when he would go with us, if it was in the summer, then they would take off and go to mostly art museums they loved.

A. Dennis Sparger (33:13)
Wow. 

Christine Brewer (33:13)
And she's still like that now.

Ron Klemm (34:54)
A little bit of the Domine Deus, the fifth movement from the Gloria by Francis. Poulenc, something we pulled out of our archives. Christine Brewer singing the soprano solos with The Bach Society of Saint Louis Chorus and Orchestra conducted by Dennis Sparger at the Christmas Candlelight Concert in Powell Symphony Hall in December of 2010. What a legacy. Our conversation with Christine continued for over an hour, and we'll share more of it with you next time she talked about some of her favorite opera houses and concert venues in this country and in Europe, she relates what her mentor Birgit Nielsen always told her more about storytelling too, and the passionate message she gives to her students.

Christine Brewer (35:40)
And I say this to students, I said, you know, sometimes we sing pieces that we love, but you don't ever want to just let it become automatic. Oh, yeah, I know how this goes, because your life changes every day, and your life experience informs how you're going to tell the story. That's the exciting thing about making music. You bring your life experience each time you sing it. It's not like, oh, I want to make sure I sing that high G like I sang it last time. You know, that's boring, but make it fit what your life expresses now.

Ron Klemm (36:15)
That's next time on Bach Talk. Remember now we want to answer your questions for me or for Maestro Sparger or any of our guests. Take a moment right now to contact us with your comments or questions, just go to bachsociety.org and click on Bach Talk on that page, there's a simple form that you can use to ask your question, or if you prefer, send me an email directly. bachtalk@bachsociety.org. while you're at it, take a moment to rate and review our podcast on your favorite platform. Wherever you listen, Your feedback helps immensely. We'll leave you as we began with Mira from Bob Merrill's Carnival.

The Associate Producer of Bach Talk is Scott MacDonald. Special thanks, of course, to Christine Brewer and Dennis Sparger. Additional assistance for this episode from Ila Klemm, Melissa Payton and Keith Fredlund. The recording engineer for all our performance excerpts, as well as Christine's Powell Hall recording is Paul Henrich, and as always, marketing and technical assistance provided by Andie Murphy and Charissa Marciniak of Right Relations.

Bach Talk is a registered trademark of The Bach Society of Saint Louis. I'm Ron Klemm.

About Episode 17

Listen in as Bach Talk host Ron Klemm chats with tenor Gene Stenger about life on stage including his experiences with The Bach Society of Saint Louis. Gene shares stories from his musical upbringing, career highlights and a lighthearted anecdote about how his cat allergy almost disrupted a performance. Plus, enjoy featured samples of Gene’s performances throughout the episode.

Transcription

(00:00) Ron Klemm
This is Bach Talk. 

(00:04) Gene Stenger
Being on stage, performing with an orchestra, getting to express to an audience, there's just nothing like that. Getting to sing and having an orchestra behind you and blending the singing and the orchestration together, it's just really magical, very special.

(00:51) Ron Klemm
The voice of tenor Gene Stenger. You're hearing music from the Magnificat by Johann Sebastian Bach.

Deposuit Potentes. He has put down the mighty and exalted the lowly. Hello. Welcome to Bach Talk. I'm Ron Klem. Today, we introduce you to one of the frequent guest soloists with The Bach Society of Saint Louis. Tenor Gene Stenger is a native of Pittsburgh. He studied at Yale University School of Music and the Institute of Sacred Music at Colorado State and at Baldwin Wallace University in Ohio, which we'll hear more about in just a bit.

He has performed with The Bach Society since 2017, singing tenor roles in the Mozart Requiem, Bach Cantatas and the Magnificat, the Bach Passions, and of course, the B Minor mass. His youthful virtuosity seems effortless. And, as we discover often with a lot of singers, Gene traces his roots back to family and the church.

(02:36) Gene Stenger
My first introduction to singing was, my mom was a classically trained soprano, and actually used to take me to her voice lessons when I was much younger, so I used to sit in on her voice lessons when I was three-four years old. And I started singing at around age nine, was a boy soprano, and I started singing in the church.

I would canter masses at my Catholic church and would also sing in the church choir. 

(03:07) Ron Klemm
At age nine?

(03:09) Gene Stenger
Age nine, yes. 

(03:10) Ron Klemm
Hokey smokes. 

(03:13) Gene Stenger
Yeah, I think, I think when I was in second grade, I was in music class and My music teacher was the one that discovered that I had an ability to sing and mentioned it to my, my second grade teacher and said, I think that you need to showcase this talent.

And that's really where I came in. It had started. And, so continued singing in church for a long period of time, all through middle school, and even continued in the high school. And I would say in high school was where it actually really blossomed. I was involved in all of the high school musical productions and loved being a part of those.

And also participated in a lot of the Pennsylvania, district, regional and all-state choir festivals, met some incredible people, and being a part of those festivals. And I would actually say that it was in high school was when I really, wanted to pursue music. I actually thought that I wanted to do musical theater because of my involvement in the musicals in high school, but it was really my voice teacher at the time and my high school choir director that really encouraged me to pursue more of the classical musical music route.

They thought that that would be a better fit for me. 

(04:41) Ron Klemm
Do you sense that you made the decision on your own with encouragement, or do you feel like you were pushed into it? 

(04:48) Gene Stenger
I would say that I made the decision on my own. I mean, I was certainly open to their suggestions and was willing to see where it would take me, but certainly made the decision on my own too. 

(05:02) Ron Klemm
And then after high school, you went to? 

(05:04) Gene Stenger
Baldwin Wallace Conservatory of Music. 

(05:06) Ron Klemm
Which is not too far from home, a couple of hours maybe. 

(05:09) Gene Stenger
No, not too far, about two and a half-hour drive from Pittsburgh and, did my bachelor's in voice there. And I would say that was actually my introduction to singing Bach. Baldwin Wallace hosts the oldest collegiate Bach festival in the country. And as an undergrad, I got to sing in the chorus for all of the major Bach works every year, and also had opportunities to perform as a soloist in a couple cantatas for a couple of the festivals, which was really special.

(05:46) Ron Klemm
I have a friend who puts it this way. He didn't go searching for Bach. Bach found him. Is that a similar experience for you? 

(05:58) Gene Stenger
I would say yes. Yeah, I would say. It always has seemed like no matter where I've gone Bach has always followed. 

(06:09) Ron Klemm
People talk about, certain singers being Bach specialists or certain conductors being Bach specialists.

(06:17) Ron Klemm
In other words, Oh, here's Gene Stenger. We're going to put him in this pigeonhole. Do you, do you resent that? Do you love that? Or somewhere in between, or this whole concept of being a specialist in one particular area. How does that sit with you? 

(06:33) Gene Stenger
I certainly love it. I. Have always felt like Baroque music was something that I excelled in.

That was always my particular niche for singing, but of course, I'm open to doing opera as well. I'm open to doing, Mozart and bel canto and, and Britten. And I, I have done some of that and that's my goal is to continue to expand beyond that, but still keeping that Bach Baroque niche.

(08:06) Ron Klemm
I want to take a moment to tell you about an upcoming episode of Bach Talk. We're going to devote our time together to answering your questions. Whether it's a question for me, for our music director and conductor Dennis Sparger, or any of The Bach Society staff, we want to hear it and answer it the best way we can.

(08:26) Ron Klemm
And, I'll even raise the stakes. We stay in contact with all our guests. So, if you've listened to a previous episode and thought, I wish he would have asked about this or that, tell me what it is. I'll get in touch with that guest and get the answer for you. Now, we have an easy way for you to do that. Just go to BachSociety.org and click on Bach Talk. And on that page, there's a simple form that you can use to ask your question. Or if you'd rather, email me straight away. BachTalk@BachSociety.Org. Don't be shy. There are no dumb questions. I look forward to hearing from you. Getting back to my conversation with tenor Gene Stenger, I asked him about the issue of travel, something that all of our guest soloists must deal with, of course. How does he keep his voice healthy on planes traveling from city to city? 

(09:19) Gene Stenger
Well, I, I still mask when I travel. and I will say that certainly sleep. is top priority if I can try to get as much sleep as I can, that certainly helps hydration. I, I always carry Airborne with me, you know, even if I'm not feeling sick, I'll always try to take Airborne just because I do always have to stay healthy and in top shape, 

(09:51) Ron Klemm
Earplugs, I hope, because sometimes there's noise in the hotel. 

(09:55) Gene Stenger
Yes. Yes. Although

(09:56) Ron Klemm
I've got some extras if you need them. 

(09:59) Gene Stenger
Typically I'm always asleep very fast and I'm a pretty deep sleeper so. 

(10:05) Ron Klemm
What are the pieces that resonate with you and I know you try to do a variety of things and good for you, but at some point you have to kind of focus in on oh, yeah, this is this is my wheelhouse All right. What are those pieces that you really are getting more and more attached to? 

(10:25) Gene Stenger
Handel's Messiah, I would certainly say both of the Bach passions, both St. Matthew, St. John, the B minor, Christmas Oratorio. 

(10:36) Ron Klemm
Yeah. 

(10:37) Gene Stenger
I would certainly say that the major works of Bach. 

(10:41) Ron Klemm
Obviously, with some of these, major works and these, you know, difficult arias, you put a lot of thought into it.

(10:50) Ron Klemm
You put a lot of attention into it. You focus on it and you come to the rehearsal, the first rehearsal and you meet the conductor and he or she, has decided to do something a little different than what you were planning. How do you deal with that and how do you collaborate in that way? 

(11:12) Gene Stenger
Well, I would certainly start by being open to their suggestions or their ideas on their interpretation and seeing if it does work, because sometimes they may present an idea to you that you're a little hesitant about, and then actually you find that it does work.

(11:35) Gene Stenger
So I do think it's, it's open to it. It's good to be open to those suggestions while still incorporating your ideas. So it's really a matter of finding this, fine balance this, this balance between the two. and I would say that if you can execute that well, then I think that it will set you up for success.

(12:01) Ron Klemm
Talk to me about, Maestro Sparger and about The Bach Society. You've sung with us a number of times. How do you, how do you view that whole relationship? Obviously, we would, we view it very fondly. 

(12:16) Gene Stenger
Oh, Dennis. He's, he is wonderful to work with. He performs the music at such a high level. What I really appreciate about him is his attention to detail and how specific he is.

But also, very easy to work with and has made every experience an enjoyable, musically enriching experience. 

(12:43) Ron Klemm
Some of the things that we do are extremely difficult for audiences, but also for performers in terms of the texts, in terms of the subject matter. How do you deal with some of the most poignant, meaningful passages that you are now called upon to deliver? 

(13:05) Gene Stenger
Well, I think that you still, you can't lose your connection and the foundation to the technique. you know, I think anytime that you are conveying any kind of emotion. It's very easy to sing with a closed throat, clamp up, and we have to really think the opposite. So it's having the technique as the foundation while still conveying that emotion and following that, that emotion.

(13:46) Ron Klemm
Do you ever have a time when you say, I'm not going to think about this text now, I'm going to pretend that it's about watermelons or something and just come just so you can focus on your technique? 

(13:56) Gene Stenger
Yes, there are certainly times where that is the case. let's say if it's, a passage that is a very high, high tessitura, high range sometimes that is just simply thinking about technique. 

(14:15) Ron Klemm
So much of what we do, in with The Bach Society and, and with the other, organizations that you sing with are done in a foreign language. So now we're dealing with audiences who understand English, but they may not understand that foreign language.

(14:31) Ron Klemm
All right. How do you adjust what you're doing to communicate to that audience? 

(14:39) Gene Stenger
Well I think a lot of that is making sure that I thoroughly understand the text and knowing what emotion that I'm going to convey.

(16:01) Ron Klemm
The voice of tenor Gene Stenger, with a portion of Cantata 80, Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott. A mighty fortress is our God. Music by Johann Sebastian Bach. More with Gene in a moment. This is Bach Talk.

What's the weirdest thing that ever happened to you in a performance? What is the performance that you remember for all the wrong reasons? 

(16:33) Gene Stenger
Oh, actually, 

(16:35) Ron Klemm
Oh, oh, please don't tell me it was here in St. Louis. 

(16:38) Gene Stenger
No, no, no, no, no, it wasn't. No, this, I typically don't do this, but, I think this was an off day for me.

This was a, a gig that I had at home in Cleveland, and I arrived at the venue and completely forgot to bring my concert attire. I, I don't know what happened. I don't know why I forgot it. I think my mind was just in a million places. And so I got to the venue and, was freaking out and didn't know what to do and was mentioning this to other people, seeing if anyone else had an extra tux that could fit me.

And fortunately, someone was able to get, another tux for me that did fit. However, the person had a cat and I'm actually allergic to cats. So there was some cat dander on, on the suit, on the tux and, was hoping that I wouldn't have any kind of allergic reaction while I was performing and miraculously I didn't.

But yeah, I, I would say that that's probably the one of the weirdest things that's happened. 

(17:56) Ron Klemm
Well, I would guess that that would, that would, it'd be very hard to focus when your turn came up. 

(18:03) Gene Stenger
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But it took a lot of mental focus and concentration, but, yeah, that's, that was definitely a one-time ordeal.

(18:14) Ron Klemm
Let's talk about the opposite. What are those moments? And it's not necessarily a full performance, but it's, there are moments. Sometimes it's in rehearsal, isn't it? And you go, Oh, wow. That's, that I wish I could replicate that and have that the rest of my life. Where, when does that happen to you? 

(18:31) Gene Stenger
Oh, wow. I would say maybe not a specific moment, but I would say those, those periods in rehearsals where everything gels together and you, maybe you get to the end of a, of a piece and you just let it settle and it resonates in the room or in the hall, wherever you're rehearsing and you take a moment to experience that and, and take it in and think, wow, this is, this is beautiful. This is gorgeous. 

(19:05) Ron Klemm
What does Gene Stenger want to accomplish or are you living just for today? What are you thinking about for the rest of, you're a young guy, for the rest of your career? 

(19:17) Gene Stenger
Well, I think professionally I'd like to certainly continue in the Baroque world, but I'm also working on expanding beyond that into opera and would love to explore more Mozart, more bel canto repertoire, Britten, would love to continue to keep challenging myself vocally and seeing what, what I can do. I'm, I'm, I'm very thankful for this. Baroque niche, but would love to certainly expand beyond that. 

(19:54) Ron Klemm
What is it about singing that has this, and some people call it magic, but, but it's, there's some sort of connection that it almost It defies words.

(20:06) Ron Klemm
What is it about singing that makes that happen? 

(20:11) Gene Stenger
I would say for me, it's being on stage performing with an orchestra, getting to express to an audience. There's just nothing like that. Getting to sing and having an orchestra perform behind you and blending the singing and the orchestration together, it's just really magical. Very special.

(20:39) Ron Klemm
Well, we are thrilled to have you in St. Louis, and I hope you'll come back often and, perform with the Bach Society. 

(20:48) Gene Stenger
Absolutely. 

(20:49) Ron Klemm
Thank you. 

(20:50) Gene Stenger
Thank you so much, Ron. 

(20:51) Ron Klemm
Gene Stenger. I'm Ron Klemm and this is Bach Talk.

(21:27) Ron Klemm
You're hearing a poignant aria from the St. John Passion by Johann Sebastian Bach. The tenor is Gene Stenger from a performance in March 2024 by The Bach Society of Saint Louis. Dennis Sparger, Music Director and Conductor.

Remember now, we're planning an upcoming episode devoted to answering your questions, for me, for Maestro Sparger, for any of our past guests. Take a moment right now to contact us with your question. Just go to bachsociety.org, click on Bach Talk, and on that page, there's a simple form that you can use to ask your question.

Or if you prefer, send me an email directly, bachtalk@bachsociety.org. I look forward to hearing from you. While you're at it, if you enjoy what you're hearing on this or any of our previous episodes, will you take a moment to rate and review our podcast on your favorite platform? Wherever you listen, your feedback helps us immensely.

The associate producer of Bach Talk is Scott MacDonald. The recording engineer for all of our performances is Paul Henrich. Technical and marketing assistance provided by Andie Murphy and Charissa Marciniak of Right Relations.

Bach Talk is a registered trademark of The Bach Society of Saint Louis. I'm Ron Klemm.

About Episode 16

Since 1951, The Bach Society of Saint Louis’ annual Christmas Candlelight Concert has drawn nearly a quarter of a million attendees, becoming a cherished holiday tradition. In this episode of Bach Talk, host Ron Klemm sits down with Music Director and Conductor A. Dennis Sparger to share lively stories, over a dozen musical samplings, and what makes this concert magical. Plus, enjoy a heartfelt holiday message from the chorus to cap off the holiday season.

Transcription

(00:00) Ron Klemm
This is Bach Talk.

Concerts can sometimes begin with a bang. Other times they start softly, with moments of tenderness and anticipation. The best concerts, the ones you're thinking about right now, contain copious amounts of both moods, carefully and sensitively balanced. That doesn't just happen. It requires keen skill, vast experience, sometimes significant collaboration, and always, a deep, rich understanding of the music and the audience.

Hello, I'm Ron Klemm. Welcome to Bach Talk. It's the holiday season and we're looking forward to another Christmas Candlelight Concert, part of a great legacy of The Bach Society of Saint Louis. Current Music Director and Conductor Dennis Sparger has provided the artistic vision for this event since 1986. No other singular annual concert has become more a part of the very fabric of our region.

When folks from Great Britain came to town several years ago, the next December issue of BBC Music Magazine proclaimed the Christmas Candlelight Concert presented by The Bach Society of Saint Louis is one of the top 20 live Christmas events in North America. I thought it was high time to talk about this important annual concert.

I invited Dennis over for a cup of freshly roasted Kenyan Double A Corundel coffee and a chat. As is often the case when I meet with my good friend, I learned some things too. 

(02:29) A. Dennis Sparger
The first Christmas Candlelight Concert was in 1951. The Bach Society had been formed ten years earlier. And during that time, Dr. William Heyne, our founder, was also conducting the St. Louis A Cappella Choir and they had been doing a Candlelight Concert that had been pretty successful. And I think they finally realized by 1951 that it was time for The Bach Society to also have a Christmas Candlelight Concert. So they planned one for Kiel Opera House for that very first concert.

(03:06) A. Dennis Sparger
Their soloist was the soprano Dorothy Maynor. Now that name may not ring a big bell today, but as we look back in history, she was really something. Two years earlier, she had sung at the inaugural gala for Harry Truman, the first African American soloist to be in such a prestigious position. Two years after our first Christmas concert, she sang at the inauguration of Dwight Eisenhower.

(03:36) A. Dennis Sparger
And this was one, you know, incredible singer, and she was our first guest soloist. In 1953, our guest soloist was a very young Beverly Sills, who went on to have just an amazing career, but these things also were topped by 1981 under conductor Donald Chen and then a few years later under conductor Pat Partridge.

Christine Brewer was a soloist and she was really quite young then. And at my first concert in 1986, Christine was my first soloist. So we've had these wonderful people and since that time, in 1972 David Gordon, our friend was a soloist. And we've had wonderful people like Mary Wilson and Sherzod Penthaki and gee Nathan Gunn and 

(04:34) Ron Klemm
Josefien Stoppelenburg.

(04:37) A. Dennis Sparger
Josefien Stoppelenburg, yes. So we've had, you know, these wonderful solo opportunities that to introduce them to the people of St. Louis.

(05:19) Ron Klemm
To have someone of that stature to come to St. Louis and be a soloist with The Bach Society of Saint Louis. To me, that's meaningful. And the Dorothy Maynor and all the others. It means, not that this needs to be legitimized in any way, but to me, it underscores the fact that it's, it's a big deal. 

(05:40) A. Dennis Sparger
It says something about the real quality of the program, and I think it, it also suggests why our audiences keep coming year after year.

It began with just one performance and a few years later they had to do two performances. There was several years where they had to do three performances. Now this is at Kiel Opera House which is now called the 

(06:02) Ron Klemm
Stiefel.

(06:02) A. Dennis Sparger  
Stiefel, yes, I almost said the Peabody. They've changed names a bit. But I think that holds about 3,500 people.

So they were doing three performances. When Powell Hall opened in 1968 the concert moved to Powell Hall, and the seating capacity at that time was 26- 2,700, and most of the concerts were given two performances. I know when I came in in 1986, we were doing two performances. For a while, we went back to just one, and we're very comfortable with that.

(06:36) Ron Klemm
It's a, it's a full house every time. And, I think that the one performance that sticks in my mind as being kind of a symbolic one was a comeback performance after the pandemic. We were all in masks, so we couldn't communicate. And you know, because you tell us that we need to communicate with our whole countenance, right?Our whole face. And we couldn't do it. And yet there was something, I don't want to say magical, but something special about being able to do that during the pandemic. Do you remember that?

(07:10) A. Dennis Sparger
It was a really special time. And, wow. Yeah. We had no idea if people would feel comfortable coming out and they really came out and supported that concert. It was very exciting.

Well, I do remember the joy of doing the Poulenc Gloria and with Christine Brewer as the soloist. It was just a very special time for me. And you know, I've heard some other recordings of her singing and I thought ours was pretty good. She was just lovely.

(09:01) A. Dennis Sparger
Now I could say something about the formula of this concert, and as I look back at the records of all the repertoire that have been performed since 1941, and what I could see is that all six of The Bach Society's conductors, they followed basically the same plan of including a minor major work in the first half of the concert, you know, something by a significant composer but also not terribly terribly long.

(09:30) Ron Klemm
And not always Bach.

(09:31) A. Dennis Sparger
And not always Bach.

Yeah, so there were some other composers involved as well. Now Dr. Heyne certainly stuck to a lot of Bach and his programming, but since his time you know, he retired in 72. And, you know, the following conductors have strayed a little bit from that. And then, of course, the second half would always open with that beautiful candlelight processional.

And we would go on from there with favorite carols some including the audience singing along. So it's just been a wonderful tradition.

We've done, you know, kind of more spectacular pieces like the Rutter Gloria and his Magnificat, which again has a lot of power, a lot of appeal.

(10:32) Ron Klemm
A lot of brass.

(10:33) A. Dennis Sparger
Yeah, a lot of brass, yes, yeah. Now, I realize that there's a part of our audience that loves coming to the Bach concerts, but there's a much larger audience that loves coming to our Christmas concert because it doesn't have so much Bach, if any, and they really enjoy pieces that are more familiar to them.

So that's something that we also try to bring in. I remember the first time we did Randol Bass's setting of Joy to the World, which is on one of our CDs. And, well, in fact, I was just listening to it while driving over, to get in the mood and what, you know, a spectacular arrangement and people are thrilled to hear such a special thing.

(11:40) Ron Klemm
There are other composers that have come to light in recent years. 

(11:56) A. Dennis Sparger
Yes. 

(11:57) Ron Klemm
That have really caught the attention of our audiences. A couple of names that come to mind. One is Barlow Bradford. 

(12:04) A. Dennis Sparger
Yes. 

(12:05) Ron Klemm
And you seem to love his arrangements. 

(12:08) A. Dennis Sparger
Yes. He really knows how to score for an orchestra and writes the, you know, the perfect notes for the choir to sing. They're always very exciting arrangements. You know, we've also done a lot of settings by Stephen Mager. St. Louis composer. And again, he just has a wonderful sense of color in the music and almost every year we'll have a piece or two or three by Stephen Mager. So we've really enjoyed being his champion.

We're beginning to find newer people. My assistant conductor, Stephen Eros, is quite fond of the music of Elaine Hagenberg and so we're doing another one of her pieces and we're doing another Howard Helvey piece, a Missouri composer. So there are just, you know, so many opportunities for finding, you know, new people to bring to St. Louis. 

(13:30) Ron Klemm
I think some of the most meaningful moments, touching moments, for me personally were arrangements by Mack Wilberg.

(13:41) A. Dennis Sparger
Yes, I thought that's where you were going. 

(13:45) Ron Klemm
Who has since become a friend. Which is, again, one of things that we always talk about is that life is about relationships, and one of the things that just was so wonderful to me is what, what an approachable guy he is.

(13:59) Ron Klemm
And he wrote something that was very, we commissioned him to write something very special for us. Tell us about that. 

(14:06) A. Dennis Sparger
That's right. Well, this must've been for one of my anniversary years. There have been so many by now.

(14:15) Ron Klemm
Well, it was for your 35th.

(14:17) A. Dennis Sparger
And the Bach Society commissioned a carol, in fact, a carol that Bach himself had set to music. So it made this all the more special. And because of COVID, we had to wait a year to perform it, but it was just a beautiful little setting. And I think by now he's performed it with, with the Tabernacle Choir of Temple Square. 

(14:56) Ron Klemm
From the 2021 Christmas Candlelight Concert in St. Louis’ iconic Powell Hall, a portion of the German carol O Jesulein süß, O Little One Sweet, arranged by Mack Wilberg and commissioned by The Bach Society of Saint Louis for the organization's 80th anniversary season, as well as Maestro Sparger's 35th year as music director and conductor.

(16:24) Ron Klemm
Also in the last few moments, we heard snippets from three different settings of the Gloria, John Rutter's to open then Josefien Stoppelenburg on a recent visit, wowing the audience with the fiendishly difficult Handel Gloria and from 2010 St. Louis area and internationally renowned soprano, Christine Brewer, with a few moments from the Gloria by Francis Poulenc. More of our conversation with a maestro and more music straight ahead. With Dennis Sparger, I'm Ron Klemm. This is Bach Talk.

(17:04) A. Dennis Sparger
You know, as I plan Christmas concerts, you know, I keep records of what I performed when, and I realize, you know, I do a lot of repeating of carols. You know, someone told me once, you could do exactly the same concert year after year after year, and people would be happy. Well, I try to find more variety, as I look back, you know, through our history, there's always been the repetition of wonderful moments.

(17:27) Ron Klemm
Speaking of something that happens every year. year. Give me a conductor's perspective on the tradition of the candlelight procession. Now, every seat is a front seat in the house because the singers are going all over the place, but you get to stare out and look at this whole thing. I wonder what that bird's eye view is like. 

(17:50) A. Dennis Sparger
I remember after my first concert, I told a board member that, you know, this was a great concert. If we can just do away with the candlelight procession, it would be perfect. And I was told, this is why people come. 

(18:03) Ron Klemm
Were they right? Or were you right? 

(18:05) A. Dennis Sparger
I was wrong, but the challenge was finding music that was appropriate for processing. 

(18:12) Ron Klemm
And what does that mean?

(18:15) A. Dennis Sparger
That means the choral parts could be a little too complicated, too involved. And that would be fine if you were standing on the risers and you have your music in front of you. 

(18:25) Ron Klemm
And the music was all coming from the same spot. 

(18:27) A. Dennis Sparger
Yes, if it was all coming from the same spot. But when you're looking at singers being scattered all throughout the hall, and you're looking at singers being scattered all throughout the hall, And they have to sing from memory and they have to walk at the same time.

Thank goodness they don't chew gum while they sing. But, but it almost feels like that. There are so many activities going on. So eventually after years of struggling with this, I started writing my own. So the parts would be a little simpler for the chorus, just a verse or two. So they could memorize the words very quickly.

In fact, in many cases, they already have the words memorized. And, very little harmony singing, unless there were dramatic moments, and then let the orchestra do more of the work. Of the,

(19:11) Ron Klemm
of the complicated and the harmonies, 

(19:13) A. Dennis Sparger
Right. Yes, yes. Yeah. And then, of course, I was able to drag you into this to be my colleague in arranging and it just turned out very well.

(19:21) A. Dennis Sparger
Yeah, I know last year I said, okay, this is my last one. All of a sudden I'm writing yet a fresh one for this year.

(19:28) Ron Klemm
One of the things that I remember from one of the processionals that we collaborated on was how important it was to include Bach. That Bach would be the centerpiece of it. And there we took that chorale from one of the cantatas featured in the Christmas oratorio, which had been done many years with Dr. Heyne and others, but made that as the centerpiece and as the focus. That was, that was a, people talk about that as being a moving moment.

Talk about audiences and audience participation. We have developed a kind of a tradition with The Bach Society. It started with the Christmas concerts, but now it's, it's spread to all of our concerts. 

(21:44) A. Dennis Sparger
We're doing it in other places as well. 

(21:47) Ron Klemm
And that is active participation. I think that if there's one thing that's changed over the years that has some significance to it, is people don't go to concerts now just to sit passively and you know, fold their hands and, and they want to in some way be Connected, they want to participate actively. And one of the things we've done with the Christmas Candlelight Concert over the years is made sure that the audience was actively participating. Tell us about that. 

(22:20) A. Dennis Sparger
Right. It's so important and you know, we've all been in situations where there should be audience or congregation participation in singing and you look around and very few people are singing.

They just don't get into it anymore and yet we're finding so many of the people in our audience love to sing and they look forward to the opportunity, especially singing with an orchestra and with 60 or 70 highly trained singers leading them along the way and it becomes such a wonderful experience.

So we always try to include this, well not try, we do include this in our Christmas Candlelight Concerts because we feel it's important for every audience member to feel a personal investment in what this is all about.

We haven't mentioned earlier, and I should mention now, that this is not a holiday concert. This is a Christ Christmas concert. It's music that celebrates the birth of the Savior. And all of the music is selected with that in mind. It's not really a religious experience. It might be a spiritual one, but we want it to be meaningful for what the season is really all about. 

(24:27) Ron Klemm
You know, that's very interesting that you bring that up. Because historically, Bach's music was written primarily, his choral music, or what was it that Cal Stapert said in one of our recent ones? Oh, the Essential Bach. 

(24:44) A. Dennis Sparger
Yes.

(24:44) Ron Klemm
Essential Bach was written for worship. For worship, was written for church service experience. 

(24:49) A. Dennis Sparger
Sure. 

(24:50) Ron Klemm
But a piece like Handel's Messiah was written for a more general audience. 

(24:57) A. Dennis Sparger
For the theater. 

(24:57) Ron Klemm
For the theater. Exactly right. We've come to make it such that of course it's, it's a performance, it's music for the theater as it were, but, but to bring that Bach dimension in, I think is something that is so unique to this concert. Wouldn't you agree? 

(25:16) A. Dennis Sparger
Yes. And even if we're not doing the music of Bach, we're following through with his ideas.

(25:21) Ron Klemm
The spirit of Bach.

(25:45) Ron Klemm
Christ was born for you, a message delivered by The Bach Society Chorus and Orchestra from a recent Christmas Candlelight Concert in St. Louis. Speaking of the chorus, they have another message for you. That's next. I'm Ron Klemm. This is is Bach Talk.

(26:47) Ron Klemm
We've heard from Music Director and Conductor Dennis Sparger, and you've heard some of my thoughts, too, about The Bach Society's annual Christmas Candlelight Concerts, a St. Louis tradition since 1951. Now, let's hear from the chorus. What are their thoughts? Not specifically about this concert, necessarily, but of the choral experience in general? Well, let's find out.

(27:15) Stephanie McSwain
We're all here for one common purpose. Sharing the music of Bach, and no matter where we're coming from, that's our, that's our goal, that's our mindset, that's our mission. 

(27:27) Rachel Jones
I absolutely love the people. It's very uplifting every week to see this group. 

(27:32) Theresa Flores
I really have had some, some great friendships blossom out of The Bach Society.

(27:37) Ellen Leaf
People are very friendly and very warm and welcoming, so it's not just a job, and it's not just a place to come and rehearse and then go sing. I think it's a community. 

(27:47) Rosalind Stevens
It's very inclusive and everybody has their own thing to bring to the mix. We have doctors, lawyers, teachers.

(27:55) Stephanie McSwain
I love that we are so diverse in age, in stages of life, in backgrounds.

(28:02) Tyler Sexton
It's people who, for probably no other reason in life, would ever connect, would ever meet. 

(28:07) Scott MacDonald
It's just such a really dedicated and passionate community of singers. 

(28:12) Jack McFarling
And everyone I think is here for the right reason. They're, they're here to make music. 

(28:18) Alison Neace
Even though it's a mix of volunteers and professionals, everybody has a very strong musical background.

(28:24) Shephali Wolff
The richness of sound and sort of the technique that the chorus has is unparalleled.

(28:30) Susan Niederer
I think it's the quality and the caliber of the music that we do. It's just music that I wouldn't get to do anywhere else. 

(28:37) Nichole Black
It is about the only group in St. Louis that offers the opportunity to sing these pieces, you know, with orchestra.

(28:45) Melissa Payton
There's no other organization that's really dedicated to preserving these oratorio works and those inspired by him.

(29:05) Theresa Flores
Getting to work with somebody like Dennis is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. 

(29:09) Rachel Jones
It's the dedication that Dennis has and his care for every programmatic decision. 

(29:15) Shawn Neace
There's a professionalism in the organization that doesn't exist in every group. 

(29:19) Susan Niederer
We have an outstanding board that is committed to the future of the Bach Society.

(29:26) Melissa Payton
The fact that we are over 80 years old, we have built relationships with so many people over the years. It's really our individual donors that are sustaining us and investing in our future by maybe giving through a legacy gift, supporting a concert series, or by making a one-time wonderful gift. 

(29:48) Alison Neace
We have such wonderful supporters and when you get to look out and see their faces and talk to them at, during the concerts and at events. It's just a wonderful group of people to share the music with. 

(30:01) Andy Greenwood
The choir is extremely active in the community. They have this wonderful program of outreach and education. 

(30:09) Melissa Payton
There's no other organization that is doing what we do. No other choral organization that is investing in young students and investing in music education. And so we have this unique opportunity to move this type of music forward and into our schools and remind students and our audience why it's so valuable and so important. 

(30:35) Tyler Sexton
To me, it's special because there's obvious dedication.

(30:39) Rachel Jones
It's the loyalty of the singers, first of all. It's the loyalty of patrons. It's the fact that people choose to sing with this ensemble for 50 years. 

(30:47) Ellen Leaf
The very first note of warming up, I felt like I was home. 

(30:51) Maggie Lowe
It's the love of my life. I don't know what I would do without it. 

(30:54) Andy Greenwood
I couldn't imagine a better group to get involved with.

(30:58) Katie Abraham
The ability to create not only music but experiences together is really special.

(31:52) Ron Klemm
Musical portions today featured selections from concert performances by The Bach Society of Saint Louis, Dennis Sparger, music director and conductor. Many of these performances are still available for digital download. Just go to our website, bachsociety.org, and click on Watch and Listen. There you'll find links to these recordings.

Bach Talk would like to hear from you. We'd appreciate it if you'd take a moment to rate and review our podcast on your favorite platform. Wherever you listen, your feedback helps us reach more listeners, tell our story, and keep the conversation going. If you have comments, questions, or suggestions about Bach Talk for our team or any of our guests, we'd love to hear them.

You can fill out a quick and easy comment form on our website at Bachsociety.org/bach-talk. Or, email us directly, Bachtalk@bachsociety.org.

The associate producer of Bach Talk is doting daddy-to-be Scott McDonald. Our recording engineer is the fabulous Paul Henrich. Additional assistance today provided by a tremendous trio, Sarah Langworthy, Andie Murphy, and Charissa Marciniak. On behalf of the Board of Directors, Music Director Dennis Sparger, and Executive Director Melissa Payton, and the rest of the Bach Society staff, this is Ron Klemm wishing you a meaningful and Merry Christmas, and a joy-filled New Year.

Bach Talk is a registered trademark of The Bach Society of Saint Louis.

About Episode 15

Join us for an exciting conversation with The Bach Society of Saint Louis' Principal Cellist, Ken Kulosa! Bach Talk host Ron Klemm and Music Director and Conductor A. Dennis Sparger sit down with Ken as he shares his unexpected journey from aspiring doctor to cellist. Get a behind-the-scenes look at his experiences navigating the complexities of Bach’s music, the challenges of playing the viola da gamba and the passion that drives him.

Transcription

(00:00) Ron Klemm
This is Bach Talk.

That's the Courante from the 3rd Suite for Cello Alone by Johann Sebastian Bach. It's being played by Kenneth Kulosa, an active pedagogue as well as performer. Ken can be found in many realms these days. He teaches cello both privately and at Washington University here in St. Louis. In fact, the Missouri chapter of the American String Teachers Association named Ken Kulosa their Artist Teacher of the Year in 2003.

But it wasn't a foregone conclusion that Ken would even be a musician. In fact, there was a time when he seriously considered becoming a doctor. Until 

(00:53) Ken Kulosa
I was thinking about it really seriously and I thought, there's no way I can study eight hours a day, you know, for medicine. And, and then I thought, well, there's no way I can practice eight hours a day.

And I'm like, I have a real problem. But then I did come to the realization that I'm not going to play cello for fun because I always know I could have played it better. And so I said, I'll quit cello, except I really like classical music. I would rather always be on stage. 

(01:23) Ron Klemm
Mm-Hmm. 

(01:24) Ken Kulosa
Honestly, it's just a thrill that there's, there's nothing that you can compare it to, I think.

(01:43) Ron Klemm
Hello, I'm Ron Klemm. Welcome to Bach Talk. Today, a conversation with an important member of The Bach Society Orchestra, principal cellist, Kenneth Kulosa. A native of Albuquerque, New Mexico, Ken moved to St. Louis in 1997 at the invitation of the St. Louis Symphony. A graduate of the New England Conservatory and the University of Houston, Kenneth studied with Lawrence Lesser and Hans Jürgen Jensen, later became Mr. Jensen's assistant at Northwestern University near Chicago. Bach Society Music Director and Conductor Dennis Sparger joined our conversation, which began with A fair question, I think. How did it begin, this love affair with the cello? Well, rather oddly, as it turns out. 

(02:33) Ken Kulosa
My mom had, I don't know if it was somebody that called on the phone or whatever, but there was going to be somebody to come into the house and give an introductory accordion lesson.

(02:44) A. Dennis Sparger
No kidding.

(02:46) Ken Kulosa
And then. 

(02:46) Ron Klemm
How old were you at this time? 

(02:47) Ken Kulosa
I don't know. I was pretty young. I bet you I was probably seven maybe or something. 

(02:53) A. Dennis Sparger
Yeah, that sounds about right for starting. 

(02:56) Ken Kulosa
And, and, and then my mom told me that it was canceled. And I cried. I just remembered being so upset over that. 

(03:04) Ron Klemm
So you cried because you couldn't hear the accordion?

(03:08) Ken Kulosa
I don't know. 

(03:08) Ron Klemm
Even though some people cry because they have to hear the accordion. 

(03:12) Ken Kulosa
Yeah, it was just, the prospect of it seemed, it just seemed very exciting. 

(03:18) Ron Klemm
Tell me about your home and about your upbringing. Was there music in the home from the beginning? 

(03:23) Ken Kulosa
Not so much. My dad was basically tone-deaf. My mom, uh, she sang in church.

(03:30) Ken Kulosa
There's music in my family. Uh, my, I had a great aunt that could play anything on the piano by ear. Apparently, the story is that she would never practice, she'd just come into lessons and play, everything would be great. One time she came in, the music was upside down, she was playing, the teacher got very upset.

Yeah, but she could, she could do the, in church where she played, she, she played all the hymns, and, and the pastor liked to go up, modulate up a half step every time, every stanza, right? 

(03:58) A. Dennis Sparger
Every verse.

(03:59) Ken Kulosa
Every verse. So, and she'd just do the same old thing, just in another key. And, and, you know.

(04:04) A. Dennis Sparger
That's just amazing.

(04:05) Ken Kulosa
Just huge talent. Yeah. 

(04:06) Ron Klemm
So when did you pick up some sort of music, piano or violin or the cello? Oh, you shudder when I said piano. 

(04:15) Ken Kulosa
No, no, no, no, no. I started, more about the violin. My sister started on violin two years before. We started in public schools.

(04:22) Ron Klemm
Where?

(04:22) Ken Kulosa
In New Mexico in Albuquerque, and they had an amazing string program.

(04:28) A. Dennis Sparger
Oh, how important it is for public schools to have fine music programs. 

(04:33) Ken Kulosa
Yeah, yeah. And that was all due to one man being responsible for, for building that whole program all through the city and phenomenal. Then a great youth orchestra program. 

(04:44) A. Dennis Sparger
Sure, and then did you move into violin to begin with? 

(04:47) Ken Kulosa
No. 

(04:48) A. Dennis Sparger
No? 

(04:49) Ken Kulosa
After hearing my, the violin for two years, you know, I just knew I didn't want to play that.

(04:53) Ron Klemm
Because?

(04:53) A. Dennis Sparger
The first two years are pretty rough.

(04:55) Ken Kulosa
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You listen to any beginner playing the violin, you know, and, and, you know, that high E string just shrinking and, and it's just not, wasn't me. But when I heard the cello, I liked it. I was intrigued by it. I think that people kind of gravitate toward different registers of, according to, I think, their own metabolism or, or, you know.

(05:19) A. Dennis Sparger
There's something in there that makes that connection.

(05:21) Ken Kulosa
Their personalities, right? And, and how much does a personality pick an instrument and how much does an instrument shape a personality? And I think, There's very, they go hand in hand quite a bit. 

(05:32) Ron Klemm
Interesting. 

(05:33) Ken Kulosa
Yeah. 

(05:34) Ron Klemm
So you were attracted to the cello. 

(05:37) Ken Kulosa
Yeah. 

(05:38) Ron Klemm
But did you start playing a full-size cello? 

(05:41) Ken Kulosa
I think I started on a three-quarter size.

(05:42) Ron Klemm
Okay. 

(05:42) Ken Kulosa
I didn't start too small, but yeah. 

(05:45) Ron Klemm
Okay. And, and approximately what age we talking about? 

(05:48) Ken Kulosa
Uh, nine years old. 

(05:49) Ron Klemm
Okay. And when did, were you taking lessons right from the start or what, and when did it get serious? 

(05:55) Ken Kulosa
No, I, I was just doing school orchestra until, and when I was in sixth grade, my teacher, she always had, she taught at many schools.

(06:03) Ken Kulosa
She used to have a big combo concert twice every semester. And they always, she would always have a, a student feature for solo. And she's like, if you get a teacher and take lessons, we'll put you on this thing. So that's, that's, that was my invitation to go get a teacher. 

(06:21) Ron Klemm
Did you always want to be a musician?

(06:23) Ken Kulosa
The funny thing is ever since the age of four, I was going to be a doctor. That was it. 

(06:29) Ron Klemm
A medical doctor. 

(06:31) Ken Kulosa
Yes. Um, but then when music happened, music was always, it worked out very well and I loved it. And, but I would talk about both things as if they exist, like I was two different people kind of. And not that it was ever going to come to a moment where I had to make a decision, nor did I think about I would do both, but it just, I don't know, I was just going back and forth and then I had to finally have to come to my moment.

(06:57) A. Dennis Sparger
But now your playing can heal. 

(07:00) Ken Kulosa
There you go. 

(07:01) A. Dennis Sparger
The spirits of listeners. 

(07:02) Ron Klemm
Good connection. 

(07:02) Ken Kulosa
Thank you.

(07:03) Ron Klemm
I agree with that. Or you could go back to school and become a Charlie Metz and do both, right? 

(07:10) Ken Kulosa
Right. And I've had, I've, I've had one friend of mine that, that in the middle of her doctorate in, in piano, she decided she wanted to help people and, and went to medical school.

(07:20) A. Dennis Sparger
In another way. Yes. So by the time you were well into high school, you were taking this quite seriously, taking private lessons and playing in the school orchestra. And, and something must've triggered your thoughts to saying, I'm going to university and studying this really seriously. 

(07:36) Ken Kulosa
The funny thing is, so it was, I don't know, June, I might've been with the transition junior to senior year, but I, I, I was thinking about it really seriously and I thought, there's no way I can study eight hours a day, you know, for medicine and I could learn fast so I didn't like studying. And I said, there's no way I can do that eight hours a day. And then, and then I thought, well, there's no way I can practice eight hours a day. And I'm like, I have a real problem. But then I did come to the realization that I'm not going to play cello for fun. Because I'll always know I could have played it better and so I said I'll quit cello.

(08:17) Ron Klemm
Really?

(08:18) Ken Kulosa
Yeah.

(08:18) Ron Klemm
And when did you when did that thought cross?

(08:20) Ken Kulosa
Oh this, this all was this was one conversation I had with myself and then I said that's fine. And I was like except I really like classical music and I really I shouldn't say these things, but I don't like going to concerts. I like playing concerts. And I thought, well, this is a real problem because if I can't play concerts and I want to just go, then I'm always going to wish I was playing.

(08:44) Ken Kulosa
So that means I can't go to concerts. And then all of a sudden it did realize, I mean, I realized that that meant a lot more to me than I'm not going to go to the doctor and feel, oh, I wish I was doing that. You know? So, I mean, I realized that it really meant a lot more to me. 

(08:59) Ron Klemm
It is a different experience, isn't it? Uh, when you are in passive mode and you are receiving the gifts of others, you have to have a mindset that is open to receiving those. On the other hand, when you are giving, it's, it's a different frame of mind, isn't it? 

(09:18) Ken Kulosa
Very much. I would rather always be on stage, honestly. It's just a thrill that there's, there's nothing that you can compare it to, I think.

(09:27) A. Dennis Sparger
Well, so you eventually went on to a college to study. 

(09:30) Ken Kulosa
Yep. I ended up going locally to the university. 

(09:34) Ron Klemm
In Albuquerque?

(09:35) Ken Kulosa
Yeah, there was phenomenal cellists, but it just didn't really work out very well. Although I really, I learned how to practice. I once, I knew that that's what I wanted to do. Yeah. I had to, I had to do a lot of exploration on my own and it was really good for me.

But then in the middle, I, one summer I went to a summer program, Congress of Strings, and I met a new teacher that just everything exploded and it was amazing and the last two days before I had to leave, I just, I came in for a short lesson and I just started bawling because I, I, I didn't want to leave.

And 10 days later I was in Houston and, uh, going to school at the University of Houston. It was a great experience, a small department, but really full of amazing teachers and hardworking students and, uh, we had a great time and accomplished so much there. 

(10:30) Ron Klemm
And how long were you in Houston? 

(10:31) Ken Kulosa
Three years. 

(10:32) Ron Klemm
And then?

(10:33) Ken Kulosa
And then I went to New England Conservatory. I decided I needed my stamp of approval from a big school. I studied with Larry Lesser, who is at that time, he was the president of the conservatory. That was great. It was great. It was very, it was very different because we were of, you know, from who I'd studied with, with Hans, Hans Jensen.

He was a Leonard Rose student. Larry Lesser was Piatigorsky's assistant. I did not realize that they're exactly the opposite. And he did a lot of adjusting and, and it was very frustrating. But at the same time, and I, I kind of rejected a lot of the stuff that he said until I started teaching and then I realized that makes sense. That makes sense. That makes sense. 

(11:17) A. Dennis Sparger
Isn't that amazing? 

(11:18) Ken Kulosa
Yeah. 

(11:18) A. Dennis Sparger
Yeah. 

(11:19) Ken Kulosa
So it's a hybrid. I'm a hybrid.

(11:20) A. Dennis Sparger
But sometimes it takes us a long time to learn what we could have learned long ago. 

(11:25) Ken Kulosa
But when, when I was there, my teacher from Houston, he became a professor at Northwestern and then he invited me to come kind of be his assistant and get my head back together and kind of sort everything out. 

(11:37) Ron Klemm
I haven't heard heard the word St. Louis yet. 

(11:40) Ken Kulosa
Well, yeah I lived in Chicago, finished there and freelanced and played in orchestras up there and did a lot of stuff up there and then eventually was auditioning for jobs and then finally I got a position with the symphony here. So that's what brought me here. 

(11:56) Ron Klemm
Well, we are thrilled to have you and we love to see you on stage.

(11:59) Ken Kulosa
Thank you.

(12:01) Ron Klemm
With The Bach Society of Saint Louis. That's our principal cellist Ken Colosa with music director Dennis Sparger. I'm Ron Klemm and this is Bach Talk. 

(12:09) Ron Klemm
Ken Kulosa came to St. Louis from the Chicago area, where he played with the Chicago Symphony, the Grant Park Symphony, and at the same time held the posts of principal cellist for both the South Bend and Northwest Indiana symphonies. He talked about his various roles here in the Gateway City, including performing with the St. Louis Symphony under then music director Hans Vonk. 

(13:05) Ken Kulosa
So in, I spent, what, eight years in Chicago, and, and I had started teaching a lot, and, and when I got here, I'd been doing a lot of musical outreach with South Bend Symphony, and, and teaching, and things like that, and, The principal thing that I came to play with the symphony was, um, to be a kind of an outreach specialist.

So, I did a lot of that for, what, three years. And then, then I played another five years full-time. 

(13:33) Ron Klemm
What's an outreach specialist? 

(13:35) Ken Kulosa
Well, what did they call it? Um, resident musician. 

(13:38) Ron Klemm
Oh yeah? Yeah. Meaning? 

(13:41) Ken Kulosa
Outreach specialists. 

(13:43) Ron Klemm
You're so helpful, Kenneth. Whenever I need an explanation, I'm going to Ken. 

(13:48) Ken Kulosa
Right. Yeah, no, they, I spent a lot of time going out to the schools. Sure. And this is when the community partnerships program had just been started. Yes. Yes. And so lots of school visits, lots of community, you know, things. And, and it included actually also teaching at the Community Music School because the Symphony used to own that.

(14:11) A. Dennis Sparger
Yes. 

(14:12) Ken Kulosa
And so started with that as well. So. 

(14:15) Ron Klemm
And you were comfortable with, with students of what, all ages? 

(14:19) Ken Kulosa
It doesn't matter. Yeah. I mean, I have a 75-year-old student now. So anywhere from, from five years old to, five to 75. 

(14:28) Ron Klemm
So it's never too late. 

(14:29) Ken Kulosa
It's never too late. 

(14:30) A. Dennis Sparger
So you must have really enjoyed playing with the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra. 

(14:33) Ken Kulosa
Oh yeah, it was great. 

(14:34) A. Dennis Sparger
On that wonderful stage. 

(14:35) Ken Kulosa
It was great. And I, I loved those, you know, those first years of Vonk because it felt like, chamber music, really large-scale chamber music. It was really exciting. I had been, the, the only time I've ever heard the Berlin Philharmonic live, they came to Boston and that was the most amazing experience I've ever witnessed as an orchestral, you know, experience.

Because they're all up there. watching each other and, and not even paying attention to the connector. But, no, but they're 

(15:09) Ron Klemm
Dennis is sitting right here. 

(15:12) Ken Kulosa
No, it was Ozawa was conducting and that's, that's not there. 

(15:15) Ron Klemm
Nevermind. 

(15:16) Ken Kulosa
It's not their man. So, um, but, um, but they're all playing and they're all watching and making sure their bows are matching in this.

And the sound that came out of that orchestra was like nothing I've ever heard. Yes. Yes. And I was so intrigued by the fact that, okay, this, this orchestra tunes like way sharp, you know, now they're full 46 and,

(15:37) Ron Klemm
And you could hear this. You have perfect pitch or close to it. 

(15:41) Ken Kulosa
No, but I mean, 

(15:42) Ron Klemm
You could tell? 

(15:42) Ken Kulosa
I have relative pitch, but no, actually I couldn't tell. That's the thing. They were the darkest-sounding orchestra I've ever heard in my life. 

(15:47) Ron Klemm
Really? 

(15:48) Ken Kulosa
Yeah. And hearing them in symphony hall where I've, you know, I had been to many, many, you know, and just hear this sound, this dark, You know, European, I mean, Karajan had shaped that sound for what, 40, whatever years. But with Vanka, it felt a little of that too.

(16:05) Ron Klemm
Yeah, I can see that. 

(16:07) Ken Kulosa
Super exciting. 

(16:08) Ron Klemm
At some point, you joined the Bach Society of St. Louis and other organizations. Tell us about that. 

(16:15) Ken Kulosa
I had started playing, I played some concerts at Innsbruck with Maryse Carlin. Doing some trio sonatas or something. I think it was. And I, I had been doing trio sonatas since college, playing continuo, not always enjoying it, but never knowing really what I was doing, but learning.

(16:36) Ken Kulosa
And, um, I played with Maryse and she's like, well, you know, I have a group. And she says, she says, if you get a Baroque cello, you can play with us. So simple. 

(16:48) A. Dennis Sparger
Yeah. So simple. 

(16:49) Ken Kulosa
And, um, So I said, okay, I started looking and there's, there's virtually nowhere to buy Baroque instruments, especially at that time in this country, there's very little limited opportunity.

(17:00) Ken Kulosa
So I'm, I'm looking on, on eBay. I bought a cello on eBay. 

(17:05) Ron Klemm
You bought a cello on eBay. 

(17:08) Ken Kulosa
And I bought two, actually the first one I didn't like, and I sent it back to Germany, it cost me an extra thousand dollars doing just that and this other cello, it was a wreck. But it, and it was old. It's probably a 17th-century cello.

(17:23) Ron Klemm
Really? 

(17:24) Ken Kulosa
Yeah. But it, it was full of worm damage and all kinds of things. And it looked like it had been through every European conflict on the back of a soldier. I mean, but it had the most beautiful sound, but it was just a modern cello. I mean, it was set up as a modern instrument. Then I had it, as we say, Baroqued, we had it modified to a Baroque instrument.

(17:44) Ken Kulosa
I used that for many, many years. Yeah. 

(17:46) Ron Klemm
Yeah. Now you said Baroque. Yeah, not broked. 

(17:49) Ken Kulosa
No. 

(17:50) Ron Klemm
Okay. 

(17:50) Ken Kulosa
Yeah. Yeah. I mean just certain modifications have to be done to it. And, um, and so that was my instrument for many years. And I learned a lot with working with Maryse and, and, and we have some other people that, that import to the group, incredible kind of learning experience into, into that whole world.

(18:14) Ken Kulosa
Baroque music is so different than, you know, what you grew up with, you know, um, from the old-fashioned fifties kind of, 

(18:24) A. Dennis Sparger
Heavy.

(18:25) Ken Kulosa
Heavy Baroque, where Bach is Bach. 

(18:28) A. Dennis Sparger
Yes, yeah. 

(18:29) Ken Kulosa
You know, he's very serious. 

(18:31) A. Dennis Sparger
Yes. 

(18:32) Ron Klemm
Well, it is serious, but we won't know. I want to talk more about that just around the next turn. That's Bach Society Principal Cellist Ken Kulosa.

(18:39) Ron Klemm
With Music Director Dennis Sparger, I'm Ron Klemm. This is Bach Talk.

(18:56) Ron Klemm
Talk about coming to, uh, The Bach Society and about, uh, beginning to play with this venerable organization. 

(19:04) Ken Kulosa
I think it probably started with the Christmas concerts. 

(19:08) A. Dennis Sparger
Probably so. 

(19:08) Ken Kulosa
Probably when I first started playing. 

(19:10) A. Dennis Sparger
Because we have a larger string section for Christmas concerts. 

(19:13) Ken Kulosa
Right. Yes. And I don't know, that happened for several years, I imagine, as far as I recall.

(19:19) Ken Kulosa
And, uh, when Beth Macdonald retired, I wrote you a letter, uh, saying, of course, I've been, this is my favorite thing to do, honestly, is playing continuo, is absolutely my favorite thing to do. And Bach, especially, they have the best bass lines in the world. 

(19:38) A. Dennis Sparger
Yeah, absolutely. And what a joy it's been, you know, having you sitting in that position and especially, you know, through all the passions that, that really put you to task.

(19:51) Ken Kulosa
Those are the true marathons. 

(19:52) A. Dennis Sparger
Yes. Yeah. 

(19:53) Ron Klemm
Yeah. Let's talk about continuo playing. First of all, people don't, you know, a general person doesn't know what we're talking about. When I say the word continuo, What does that mean to you? Well, how do you define that?

(20:07) Ken Kulosa
Basso continuo in the, in the full term? I it's, it's really, and it's, it's interesting. I did cheat a little bit. I looked up, I don't want to be out of place with what I'm saying. Cause I, I have my opinions about what things are. And then I look up the definitions and, and, and, and I realize, oh, I'm right. So that's good. And, and it said the basso continuo is the nucleus of the ensemble in Baroque music, and I think it really is.

It's the fundamental of the group. The continuo is, of course, the bass line. And augmented with the keyboard instruments doing the chordal work, and you have the fundamental bass line, you have the harmony, and.

(20:48) A. Dennis Sparger
And it maintains a lot of the rhythm as well. 

(20:51) Ken Kulosa
Well, yeah, and the rhythm and the continuo, obviously, we continually play. So, and, you know, we lay down the law for, for the whole ensemble, responsible for really establishing the, the character of the music for the rest of the ensemble. You know, if you play just kind of sloggy and, and just, the whole orchestra is going to drag you down. 

(21:16) A. Dennis Sparger
Yes. It really has to lift.

(21:18) Ken Kulosa
Uplift the spirit. 

(21:20) A. Dennis Sparger
Moving forward. Yes. Yeah. 

(21:22) Ken Kulosa
So I feel like there's a lot of responsibility to making the group come alive. 

(21:26) A. Dennis Sparger
Yes. Uh, while we're on this subject, um, you know, the Bach Society Orchestra still uses a modern day instruments and we play a standard pitch of, you know, 440, 441. Uh, but yet we try to move in the direction of, of historically informed performance. What is it you do as a cellist to help advocate that type of sound? 

(21:51) Ken Kulosa
Yeah, I, well, of course I play so much on gut strings and Baroque bow and, and it's been an interesting time in over these years because it's really changed how I approach the bow in general. Baroque, Baroque music's all about expression through the bow.

(22:12) Ron Klemm
Yes, yeah. 

(22:13) Ken Kulosa
Modern music is more about expression through the left hand. 

(22:17) Ron Klemm
Aha. 

(22:18) Ken Kulosa
And I remember this one time I, You know, heard somebody playing it. It just sounds like the bow is an organ. It's just, it's just this wall of sound. 

(22:25) A. Dennis Sparger
Continuous sound. Yes. 

(22:26) Ken Kulosa
And whereas all the shaping in music in, in Baroque music comes from the bow. 

(22:32) A. Dennis Sparger
I think the word shaping is very important here, that the notes are shaped, the phrases are shaped, yes.

(22:38) Ken Kulosa
And so it's really changed how I use my bow in a modern sense as well. But, um, yeah, I try to implement all of those, all those shapes and stuff with, with, I, I do use a Baroque bow when we, play. 

(22:51) Ron Klemm
Now, structurally, for those, for novices like me, uh, what is the difference between a Baroque bow and a modern bow?

(23:01) Ken Kulosa
The modern bow that's been around for 200 years.

(23:03) Ron Klemm
Yeah, well, yeah, right, right, right. 

(23:05) A. Dennis Sparger
We're still calling that modern. 

(23:06) Ken Kulosa
Um, the Baroque bow is, it's very, um, if you ever look at one, The stick is straight. Under tension it actually bows outward. 

(23:18) Ron Klemm
Away from the instrument. 

(23:19) Ken Kulosa
Away from the hair, yeah. 

(23:20) A. Dennis Sparger
Like the bow you'd see for a bow and arrow.

(23:22) Ken Kulosa
Right. And the head's very slender. And, um, so it doesn't have a lot of power at the tip. There's a lot of fade in the bow as you go out in the bow. Whereas the modern bow is, it's convex, concave, convex. It's the one that goes in. 

(23:38) Ron Klemm

Right. Okay. 

(23:39) Ken Kulosa
And, um, with heat they treat that camber in the bow and the head's much taller.

(23:46) Ken Kulosa
And so what a modern bow is, is just a giant spring. It has a lot of power at the tip. It, the ability to play off the string and, and, and, uh, more effectively. 

(23:57) A. Dennis Sparger
And you can get a more even sound all the way across, you know, sustaining a note, whereas with the Baroque bow, you tend to have like a little swell in the sound and then a decay or crescendo diminuendo. And again, that's part of shaping every note. 

(24:11) Ken Kulosa
And it's interesting. You could almost think, I just had a visual image when you were doing that, I was thinking about the, the outward curve of the bow. That's exactly the sound profile. And you know, in the modern, in the modern bow, it's like that. And so you can really get a lot of power at that tip.

(24:26) A. Dennis Sparger
Of course, this is something I teach my singers, is that like with a quarter note, a half note, a whole note, build in, you know, part of it a crescendo, part of it a diminuendo, rather than singing sostenuto. 

(24:36) Ken Kulosa
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, nothing is a wall of sound in Baroque Music. 

(24:41) A. Dennis Sparger
And when you do that, I mean the wrong way, you get the kind of recordings we were hearing in the 50s and 60s where it's just thick and it tends to be overly dark and quite often those tempos were slow and you thought, gee, this is the most boring stuff in the world.

(24:57) A. Dennis Sparger
And then we hear the Bach that started coming up in the mid-60s with some of the German groups and then English groups, and we're finding, wow, this music is alive. It's bright. It's just, you know, terrific. It's a new Bach. 

(25:11) Ken Kulosa
Well, and making that transition from, from thinking of old Bach. Yeah. And then thinking about, and Baroque music is all about dance.

(25:20) A. Dennis Sparger
Yes. 

(25:21) Ken Kulosa
It's all the, so many of the, all the musical forms are based on dance forms. And, and so there's a lightness and there's, there's, there's a lilting quality to the music. And that's why when you play on gut strings and stuff, it lightens it up. It actually gets faster and it lends itself to playing like that more.

(25:40) A. Dennis Sparger
You know, some universities should require, you know, all music students to take at least one semester of 18th-century dance to learn how to do all of these steps and get the feel of them and to bring that quality into the music. 

(25:54) Ken Kulosa
Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it changes everything. I, the funny thing is when I, when I was playing Baroque cello at one point, I kept refusing to play Bach suites. Because I, I don't know, I didn't feel like I deserved to do it, yet. 

(26:10) Ron Klemm
Now, let's, what you're referring to are, are these, this set of, Suites for cello.

(26:18) Ken Kulosa
Correct. 

(26:18) Ron Klemm
Right? 

(26:18) Ken Kulosa
Yes. 

(26:19) Ron Klemm
Solo cello. No, nothing else. Mm hmm. And, and you steered away from that because? 

(26:24) Ken Kulosa
I was afraid. 

(26:25) Ron Klemm Okay.
Well, probably a normal reaction.

(26:29) Ken Kulosa
Because, I mean, it, the techniques of playing on, on a Baroque instrument are very different from modern. You cannot force things to happen. Steal strings and stuff. You just, you know, You can lay into it, you get a response. I always say with gut strings, you have to ask them very politely if they will vibrate for you.

(26:49) Ken Kulosa
And then once they say, well, of course I will. And then you can do anything with it, but you cannot play. And it, it takes a year or two to really feel comfortable with, with doing that. And, and I was really afraid and I scheduled a Baroque cello recital and I thought I'm going to do a Bach suite. I started practicing. I was like. Oh my god, this is so much easier. 

(27:10) Ron Klemm
How? 

(27:10) A. Dennis Sparger
You were ready for them then. 

(27:12) Ken Kulosa
Well, the writing lends itself to that kind of an instrument. And, um, the strokes all made sense all of a sudden. 

(27:19) A. Dennis Sparger
Wow. 

(27:20) Ken Kulosa
Everything. 

(27:20) A. Dennis Sparger
Now before we run out of time. Yeah. Some of your finest work has been done, not on the cello, but on the viola da gamba.

(27:28) Ron Klemm
Yes. 

(27:29) A. Dennis Sparger
And you especially hear this work in the St. Matthew Passion that's just so extraordinary. What's the transition like for you? You know, you add another string or two, uh, you don't have an end pin to anchor it into the floor. 

(27:44) Ken Kulosa
Yeah. It's terrifying. 

(27:45) A. Dennis Sparger
And I would imagine it's a different bow for that instrument.

(27:48) Ken Kulosa
Bow grip is completely, it's an underhand. And you, you, you, you make. You adjust the volume of your playing not with your hand and your arm, but by pulling on the hair with your finger. 

(28:01) Ron Klemm
Really? 

(28:01) Ken Kulosa
Yeah. 

(28:02) Ron Klemm
Wow. 

(28:03) Ken Kulosa
So it's all very different and you can get so lost in all these extra strings. Even my five string piccolo cello, one extra string.

(28:12) Ken Kulosa
It's, it's, you get down into the lower strings and you get lost. So in a moment, you know, you can really kind of get a little confused, but seven, that's, that's a whole different world 

(28:21) A. Dennis Sparger
Seven strings, oh my godness. 

(28:21) Ron Klemm
On a gamba?

(28:24) Ken Kulosa
Yeah. 

(28:25) A. Dennis Sparger
And quite often the notes are moving along rather briskly. 

(28:28) Ken Kulosa
Yeah. Yeah. And it's just different because instead of the strings being tuned in fifths, it's in fourths and it's tuned like a guitar.

Except a step lower, but it's tuned in the same intervals as a guitar. And so the fingering is all different and if you start to panic, you know, you revert back to what you know. And then, then, then it really gets scary. 

(28:47) A. Dennis Sparger
You have to be really cool to play the viola da gamba, not get rattled at all. 

(28:53) Ken Kulosa
Right. And when we played the St. John Passion last year, well, I was wearing a suit. And I was like, the suit pants are really scary because they're slippery. And that gamba, especially the finish on it, is very slick. And in the middle of playing that, it did fall out of my legs. 

(29:13) A. Dennis Sparger
So you need to wear shorts. 

(29:14) Ken Kulosa
Well, I actually wear, I wear black jeans most of the time when I play.

(29:18) Ron Klemm
To give it a little more friction. 

(29:20) Ken Kulosa
Yeah, to play, when I play Baroque cello or something like that. But, yeah. 

(29:24) A. Dennis Sparger
We never knew that. 

(29:25) Ron Klemm
Well, it's a secret revealed on Bach Talk. 

(29:30) Ken Kulosa
Yeah, it's a little terrifying in moments like that. But, fortunately my finger was down, it didn't fall down, so. 

(29:36) A. Dennis Sparger
Well, we do have our secrets.

(29:37) Ken Kulosa
Yes. 

(29:39) Ron Klemm
Not anymore. 

(29:40) A. Dennis Sparger
Yes. You've probably played for a couple hundred different conductors. Can you, can, or more. I know. Can you tell if a conductor has a string background and knows how to talk to you as a string player? 

(30:17) Ron Klemm
He's asking for a friend, by the way. 

(30:21) Ken Kulosa
Yeah, I mean, I, I, I think certainly. Some are better at it than others. I mean, I think most of them are, are experienced enough.

(30:29) Ken Kulosa
They've been around enough. They can, they can speak about it well enough. And, um, when they start trying to give you technical advice, that sometimes. 

(30:38) A. Dennis Sparger
Maybe too much. 

(30:39) Ken Kulosa
A little too much sometimes. But, you know, they all like to use the bow. 

(30:44) A. Dennis Sparger
Yes. Yes. 

(30:45) Ken Kulosa
But, I mean, it's not, I mean, honestly, you know, a conductor, what they do with their hands and moving a bow isn't really that much different if they're expressive.

(30:54) A. Dennis Sparger
Yeah. Now I played cello for only four years at university orchestra, but I find that I, I use the movement of the bow in working with my singers frequently and, and really wish that they all had studied, you know, a stringed instrument for a while to understand what these things mean. 

(31:12) Ken Kulosa
Yeah. One of my friends in, in, uh, When I lived in Chicago was a pianist.She had a lot of students and she would send her students to me to study cello so that they could learn about phrasing and about pulling through music, you know, and using a bow. Yeah. I think it's very effective. 

(31:29) Ron Klemm
I wish I had a camera on you so people could see how you're moving your bow hand as you talk.

(31:36) Ken Kulosa
Can't help it. 

(31:36) Ron Klemm
You know what we love to do with people who we know can take it is do a couple of quick hits. 

(31:45) Ken Kulosa
Uh oh. 

(31:46) Ron Klemm
What piece can you not wait until you do it again? 

(31:51) Ken Kulosa
There's a lot of Mahler I'd like to play again. Heldenleben is one of my favorite pieces to play. Rachmaninoff, Chopin Sonatas, um, yeah.

(32:00) Ron Klemm
Well, let's go the other direction. What piece, if you never had to play it again, you'd be just fine with that? 

(32:07) Ken Kulosa
Oh boy. Uh, Beethoven 3rd. 

(32:11) Ron Klemm
Really? 

(32:11) Ken Kulosa
Yeah. 

(32:12) Ron Klemm
Interesting. 

(32:13) Ken Kulosa
It's too long. We did it on tour a lot. The Symphony, Vonk liked that piece and we played it a lot on tour. 

(32:20) Ron Klemm
Recorded it too, I think. 

(32:21) Ken Kulosa
Yeah. It's just too long.

(32:24) Ron Klemm
Present company excluded. If you could collaborate with one person, who would it be? 

(32:33) Ken Kulosa
Martha Argerich. 

(32:34) Ron Klemm
Martha Argerich? 

(32:36) Ken Kulosa
She's the goddess of piano. 

(32:38) Ron Klemm
Interesting. You must be happy doing what you're doing. 

(32:41) Ken Kulosa
I am happy doing what I'm doing. I'd like to play more while I can. I'd like to do that. I spend a lot of time teaching, you know, and doing stuff.

But I do feel, um A little bit jealous of, of a lot of my friends in Europe where they, they actually have a little bit more opportunity to, to, to pursue projects and recording and, and, and things like that on, it's a little bit easier for them. So maybe that's what it would be.

(33:08) Ron Klemm
If you could do anything else besides play the cello, what would it be?

(33:13) Ken Kulosa
I would be a luthier. I would make instruments. 

(33:15) Ron Klemm
You would make instruments. 

(33:18) Ken Kulosa
Yeah. 

(33:19) Ron Klemm
Because? 

(33:20) Ken Kulosa
I love woodworking. 

(33:22) Ron Klemm
Ah. 

(33:22) Ken Kulosa
I think there's, there's just this amazing solitude in, in making instruments. That it's, it's a very romantic kind of thing in my mind. So. 

(33:32) Ron Klemm
Well, I'm going to put woodworking tools and bench and stuff on your Christmas list.

(33:37) Ken Kulosa
Oh, thank you. 

(33:38) Ron Klemm
Okay. So that, uh, that's covered. Thank you for spending time with us. 

(33:42) Ken Kulosa
Oh, thank you. 

(33:43) Ron Klemm
What a thrill. 

(33:43) Ken Kulosa
It's been a pleasure. 

(33:44) Ron Klemm
To get to know you a little bit. 

(33:45) Ken Kulosa
Thank you. 

(33:45) Ron Klemm
That's Bach Society Principal Cellist, Ken Kulosa, with Music Director Dennis Sparger. I'm Ron Klemm and this is Bach Talk. 

(34:01) Ron Klemm
You're hearing a portion of the Allemande from the third cello suite by Johann Sebastian Bach. Ken Kulosa recorded the suite for a documentary film on the incredible life of artist and professor of design at Washington University, Leslie Laskey. We also heard Ken earlier on the viola da gamba from a performance of Bach's St. John Passion in March 2024 by The Bach Society of Saint Louis, Dennis Sparger conducting. All of our music today was captured by the Bach Society's Grammy award-winning recording engineer Paul Henrich. Paul has some fascinating stories of his own to tell, and one of our listeners suggested that we talk to Paul and share them on a future episode of Bach Talk, so we'll plan on that.

If you have suggestions for topics, comments, or questions about Bach Talk for our team or any of our guests, we'd love to hear them. Just fill out the quick and easy comment form on our website at bachsociety.org/bach-talk. Or, shoot us an email directly, bachtalk@bachsociety.org. If you enjoy what you're hearing on this or any of our previous episodes, will you kindly do us a favor?

Take a moment right now to rate and review our podcast on your favorite platform. Wherever you listen, your feedback helps us to tell our story. To reach more listeners and to keep the conversation going. Many thanks to Bach Society music director and conductor Dennis Sparger for his help today. The associate producer of Bach Talk is the amazing, multi-talented Scott MacDonald.

Marketing and technical assistance provided by Andie Murphy and Charissa Marciniak of Right Relations.

Bach talk is a registered trademark of The Bach Society of Saint Louis. I'm Ron Klemm.

About Episode 14

What makes up the "essential Bach?" Lifelong music educator, scholar and author Calvin R. Stapert joins Bach Talk host Ron Klemm to share his unique perspective on J.S. Bach’s unparalleled expressions of faith through music. The Bach Society of Saint Louis Music Director and Conductor A. Dennis Sparger adds to the conversation, as they explore Bach’s deep spiritual connection and how it shaped his compositions.

Transcription

Ron Klemm (00:00)
This is Bach Talk.

That's The Bach Society Chorus from a recent concert singing one of the motets by Johann Sebastian Bach, Fürchte dich nicht, Fear Not, For I Am With Thee. It uses a simple text, in this case from the Old Testament book of Isaiah, and combines it with a hymn that people in Bach's congregation would have known so well, Why should sorrow ever grieve me? Christ is near with his cheer, never will he leave me. It's music that holds a special significance for our guest today.

Hello, I'm Ron Klemm. Welcome to Bach Talk. Calvin R. Stapert is Professor Emeritus at Calvin University in Grand Rapids, Michigan, where he taught music for nearly four decades. Dr. Stapert has authored several books on great composers like Handel and Haydn. One of his books especially intrigued us, for a lot of reasons.

First, its title, My Only Comfort: Death, Deliverance, and Discipleship in the Music of Bach. What does that mean? But perhaps the most unusual aspect of the book is its framework. Stapert uses a historic, reformed confession, the Heidelberg Catechism, and sets it in dialogue with Bach's music, helping us connect with the Leipzig Master's unparalleled artistic expressions of the Christian faith.

The result is a fascinating take on the very essence of J. S. Bach. Now in his 80s, Cal loves to talk about music and about Bach, as he did with us several weeks ago. He joined Bach Society Music Director Dennis Sparger and me from the DeVos Communication Center at Calvin. The genesis of My Only Comfort, as Cal explained, goes way back to articles he wrote for the global tercentenary celebration of Bach's birth in 1985 and to the 250th anniversary of his death in the year 2000.

Calvin Stapert (02:46)
It just so happened at that same time I was teaching a course in Bach and I was preparing a lecture on the motet Fürchte dich nicht. 

And as I was doing this, I thought, that's the first question of the Heidelberg Catechism. What is your only comfort? Fear not, I am with you. You know, there it was. And then I went on to the second question, and what must I know to live and die in this comfort? Well, three things. First, how great my sin and misery are.

Second, how I am set free. Third, how I'm to thank God. I thought, okay, there are Bach cantatas on every one of those categories. And as I was thinking about it, you know, as a child I had grown up with little mnemonic devices for learning the structure of the catechism. One was sin, salvation, and service, which is nice. Another one was guilt, grace, and gratitude. But, maybe I can think of another trio. Death, deliverance, discipleship, and I especially like the discipleship because that's a very prominent theme in Bach's works. So, you know, the following Jesus kind of thing. He uses that in the St. John Passion, different stages of discipleship, starting with a, you know, this eagerness of the new disciple, but eventually knowing that it leads to Golgotha. It leads to bearing your cross. 

Ron Klemm (04:31)
That whole discussion of discipleship is right, it is intertwined with the story of grace. And that's a fascinating thing. So you put all those two things together. There are some people who are listening to us right now and say, oh, wait a minute. Bach wasn't a Calvinist. What are you doing with a Calvinist confession or catechism? You could have used Luther's Small or Large or Augsburg or something like that. What, tell me about that.

You have to confess now. Why, why do you use the Heidelberg catechism? 

Calvin Stapert (05:05)
Well, because I know it so well.

A. Dennis Sparger (05:09)

Good reason. 

Calvin Stapert (05:10)

But, it's Lutheranism and Calvinism don't differ on these basics. We have some important differences, but by and large, I've never really experienced any dissonance between the Calvinist preaching that I've heard all my life and the Bach cantatas that I've listened to over and over again.

They're in tune. So I felt, you know, I'm going with it and I'm, I'm happy to note that the book was reviewed in a number of Lutheran periodicals and there was never any question about the appropriateness of what I did. 

Ron Klemm (05:51)
No one got chastised for that is what you're telling me. Cal, you make a distinction between the essential and the canonical Bach. Why, why, why is that distinction important, do you think? 

Calvin Stapert (06:07)
Well, the distinction comes from an article by Richard Taruskin, Coming to Grips with the Dark Side of Bach. This was an article in the New York Times. And he made that distinction between the essential and the canonical. The canonical Bach is the Bach everybody knows, or everybody that loves music knows.

It's the Brandenburg concertos, the well-tempered clavier. Of the sacred music, it's the B Minor Mass for sure. Maybe the passions, although They're not as well known. 

Ron Klemm (06:42)
Less so. Yeah. 

Calvin Stapert (06:43)
But what's not known at all is what he calls the essential Bach. And that's the Bach that's revealed in the cantatas. 

Ron Klemm (06:51)
Right. 

Calvin Stapert (06:52)
I think that distinction has worn off a bit over time. The cantatas are readily available. There are several.

Ron Klemm (07:03)
Whole sets of recordings. 

Calvin Stapert (07:04)
Whole sets of recordings on YouTube. You can find whatever you want. So it's less crucial now. But then the thing about his essential Bach was the dark side, and so the emphasis was on the sin part of it, you know?

The world is corrupt, you are corrupt, this is, this is it. And, it made me think of a thing that Frederick Buechner said. He wrote a book in which he talks about, sin and grace. And he says in a wonderful nutshell, we are bleeding. There's the dark side, but we've also been bled for. That's the two sides of Bach.

It's not the dark. And the cantatas, both of those sides are there in abundance. 

Ron Klemm (07:59)
You call his cantatas, musical sermons. Most people would say, Oh, that's church music. And Bach, of course, was the ultimate church musician. You call them musical sermons. You want to give me a clue as to why? 

Calvin Stapert (08:13)
First of all, I didn't know I called him that. But that is, that is fairly common. Related to that is the reference to Bach as the preacher, Bach the preacher. Or even more exaggerated, shall we say Bach the fifth evangelist, you know, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Bach. And here, here's where my title comes in. I thought, you know. What would Bach think of being called the preacher?

Well, he'd probably be somewhat flattered, but I said if he wanted to be labeled with one term, it would be Bach the disciple, Bach the follower of Jesus. But there, there is certainly legitimacy to talking about Bach the preacher when you're thinking of the cantatas. Because the cantatas were written for specific worship services on specific days in the church year.

They were always very closely related to the gospel lesson of that day. And they were performed after the gospel reading, before the sermon so it is something like a musical sermon preceding the real sermon spoken by the preacher. There is some legitimacy to that term, but the cantata texts are not just preaching.

There's a variety of things. There's prayer. There's confession. There's Their scripture quotation, they're a mixed bag, and I just sort of browsed through some of them recently, and, for example, one that came to mind right away was one for the first Sunday of Advent, Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland, the Savior of the Nations come.

That's a prayer. The believer is saying, Come, Lord Jesus. But in between, there are other things. There is what you might say, preaching. Der Heiland ist gekommen. The Savior has come. All right? That's, you might say, sermonic. But then at the end, it goes back to prayer. What have you not done for us? Come, Lord Jesus, come to your church.

It sets a little service of its own, prayer, preaching, and response. And then I was looking, what about, are there any texts that are really pretty thoroughly sermon? And I thought of Wer nur den lieben Gott läßt walten, if you but suffer God to guide you if you but trust in God to guide you. Throughout, it really is a sermon on the theme of trust.

If you but trust in God to guide you and place your confidence in him, this is the first stanza, you'll find him always there beside you to give you hope and strength within. For those who trust God's changeless love, build on the rock that none will move. That's the first stanza and that's the text of the first movement of the cantata.

The remaining movements take up the second stanza really kind of line by line. And the choir sings or, or soloist as the case may be sings the the line from the choral and there's what you might call a trope, in addition, a fleshing out of that line. And then the next line. And so on line by line there, there's this quote of the line and then this further explanation, this sermon on that line.

Ron Klemm (12:03)
There you go. 

Calvin Stapert (12:04)
And then I thought, well, what about the other way, where a text is consistently one thing all the way through? And for that one, I thought of Mein Herz schwimmt im Blut one of those texts that Taruskin would have called the dark side. 

Ron Klemm (12:26)
Right, right, right. 

Calvin Stapert (12:27)
My heart swims in blood. 

Ron Klemm (12:29)
Right.

Calvin Stapert (12:30)
That text is entirely confessional. I am a sinner and it elaborates on that all the way through, until the last movement where the redemption comes in and, but it's still confession. My joy, my sin, but then my joy. At my savior having saved me.

Ron Klemm (13:26)

Organist Matthew Gearhart at Peace Lutheran Church in suburban St. Louis with Bach's chorale prelude on Nun komm der Heiden Heiland. We're visiting with Dr. Calvin Stapert, author of My Only Comfort, Death, Deliverance, and Discipleship in the Music of Bach. Along with Bach Society music director Dennis Sparger, I'm Ron Klemm and this is Bach Talk.

Ron Klemm (13:55)

Let's talk a little bit about the musical language that Bach incorporates. There was a lot of word painting going on in his day. It seems to me, correct me if I'm wrong, that Bach just took it to the nth degree and he knew exactly what he was doing. 

Calvin Stapert (14:14) 

Certainly. But that's not the whole story. Word painting, or as it's sometimes referred to as madrigalisms, because it's the kind of thing that grew up, you might say, in the Renaissance madrigals, this making the music imitate the word in some way.

Like if it's high, it's going to be a high note. If it's fast, it's going to be fast notes. And Bach, Handel, the Baroque composers never abandoned that. They never lost an opportunity to paint the word, so to speak, but the word painting is very limited. What words lend themselves to being painted in the music?

There aren't all that many. So what else is involved in, might say, the musical language? Well, there are two things. One is called Figurenlehre, and the other one is called Affektenlehre, the theory of figures, and the theory of affects. Now the theory of affects is an easier one. Affects emotions, that kind of thing.

The kind of thing your piano teacher taught you. You know, major is happy and minor is sad. Now that's of course a very naive example, but, it's that kind of thing. The theorists would even categorize the various dances as to what affect or what emotion was prominent in those dances. So an Alamande and a Gigue would, would have a different affect.

So there's that. That too is somewhat limited. What's more pervasive is the figure in there. The theme. Theory of figures, and that has to do with the theory of rhetoric. Rhetoric is an ancient thing. I mean, it's part of the seven liberal arts. Rhetoric is, is, is big. and it's in a nutshell, it's how to speak or write effectively, movingly and the music theorists borrowed from the rhetoricians, and related to music. But basically, it's doing something in the music that will draw attention to the word or the general thought of the line. Anything like having a very pungent dissonance on the word harsh, or a particular turn in the melody, not necessarily painting the word, but drawing attention to it.

And Bach is full of that. I mean, in a sense, he's full of, full of surprises. And those surprises are, are those that draw your attention to that key word or that key thought. There are other things. There's, there's symbolism. 

Ron Klemm (17:39)
Oh, sure. 

Calvin Stapert (17:40) 

For example, the German Lutheran composers of the time were particularly fond of it.

The musical symbol of the cross is a jagged line that goes up, down, up. 

Ron Klemm (17:57)
Right. 

Calvin Stapert (17:57)
And how is that a cross? Well, if you take, the outer notes of that four-note figure and draw a horizontal line in the upper and the lower notes, and you get the cross. Bach is, is full of these crosses. Another thing is, related to cross, is the crucifixus in the B minor mass.

In the credo, it's precisely in the middle of the whole credo, and not only that, not only is it in the middle but it's framed by a certain pattern of choruses and soloists on each side so that it's what's called a chiastic form, which radiates symmetrically from a center.

A. Dennis Sparger (18:54)
And, what's interesting about that is that you would never notice this in listening to the work as much as studying the work.

Calvin Stapert (19:03)
That's right. 

Ron Klemm (19:05)
Dennis put together a program this past spring based on the chorale. Let's be honest, Bach was connecting with his audience in a major way. Everyone in his congregation knew what these hymns. They were hymns in his day. Was there more to it than that? Was he just trying to connect with people, or was there more to it, or was it a personal thing with him? What do you think about that? 

Calvin Stapert (19:37)
I think it was not only connecting with the people in his congregation, it was connecting to the whole tradition. Bach was a very traditional person. He felt himself to be sort of an upholder of that tradition in the face of the new enlightenment kinds of things that were going on.

And so back to Luther is what he's doing with, with, with those chorales. This is, this is us. And I have two granddaughters that go to a Lutheran school and those kids are still learning those chorales. And they learn all the verses. Now, that can be 10 or 12 or even 15, you know.

Ron Klemm (20:34)
Because these hymns tell a whole story.

Calvin Stapert (20:36)
Yeah. Yeah. But related to that, my thought about connecting with the tradition. Here, the B minor mass comes in, too. He is taking this time-honored, venerable liturgical text that great composers had been setting it through the centuries, and there, he borrows not from the chorales, but from but from the chant, there are a few places where he incorporates a chant melody.

And another thing about his traditionalism, both the credo and the confiteor are in what they called in that day the stile antico, the old style, as opposed to the stile moderno. So again, he's taking this age-old text and, you know, taking age-old music, or what they thought of at the time as old musical styles and, incorporating them in these fantastic works.

In fact, with the B minor mass, it's way at the end of his career that he puts that all together. 

Ron Klemm (21:55)
Right, right.

A. Dennis Sparger (21:55)
And yet throughout that work, he's able to bring in all kinds of musical styles showing that he was aware of everything that was going on and you know, I find this amazing that so many of his works have a very popular feel to them that even modern-day audiences can connect and if you don't mind, I'd like to read back to you just a very short passage from your book. Without my glasses, let me see if I can read all of this. Bach's music can be at once learned and popular, technical and exuberant, disciplined and expressive, strict and free. It seems to me that one of the most beneficial functions Bach's music can perform for our harried, confused generation is to stand as a monumental testimony to the intimate relationship between freedom and law.

Ron Klemm (22:59)
That's pretty good, Cal. 

Calvin Stapert (23:00)
That's pretty good.

A. Dennis Sparger (23:02)
Yes. Yeah. 

Calvin Stapert (23:03)
You know, that has its origins in that 1985 article that I wrote, which was titled, Law and Freedom in the Music of Bach. And so I thought, I think that's worth repeating here.

A. Dennis Sparger (23:22)
Indeed. Yes. 

Calvin Stapert (23:24)
You know, the whole matter of law and freedom. Bach, picks up on that in the Passions, where Jesus is bound. Jesus is bound so that I might be free. That's really one of the central motives in the, in the Passions.

Ron Klemm (24:24)
The Bach Society Chorus and Orchestra, conducted by Dennis Sparger, and the Chorale, Bin ich reich von der Gewichen, from Bach's St. Matthew Passion. Along with Dennis, I'm Ron Klemm, more from Dr. Calvin Stapert straight ahead. This is Bach Talk.

Ron Klemm (24:46)

You made a distinction in the book. Maybe, maybe you don't remember, but, I remember you made a distinction in this book between the oratorial passion and the passion oratorial. Now, first of all, help me figure this out. This sounds like somebody just got the words mixed up. What, what's the difference?

Calvin Stapert (25:13)
Well, the words do get mixed up. The reason for the two versions has to do with being liturgical or non-liturgical. And it's the last word of the pair that determines that. The oratorio passion is the liturgical one, and it's liturgical because it's the passion reading. It's the whole passion story from Matthew or John.

So then the passion oratorio is an oratorio, like a messiah or King Saul or what have you, Elijah. It's a biblical story, but it's told in newly written poetic form to lend itself to choruses and arias.

A. Dennis Sparger (26:05)
And in the case of Handel, they're written for the theater. 

Calvin Stapert (26:08)
And for the theater, absolutely. Yeah, and there are a lot of those. I mean, Handel wrote a, I need to get the words right here. Handel wrote a Passion Oratorioto, a text that several of the Baroque composers of that time used and yes, they were for, they were for the theater, which led to serious issues with Messiah, because, again, Handel wrote it for the theater.

And there were those that said, that music is too sacred for a theater and there were others that said, well, sort of the other way around that.

A. Dennis Sparger (26:56)
At least he presented it to raise funds for the needy. 

Calvin Stapert (26:59)
Well, with Handel, that was. 

Ron Klemm (27:01)
Had a good cause.

Calvin Stapert (27:04)
A good cause.

Ron Klemm (27:05)
But you bring up a really, really good point, something that we could talk about for a long, long time if we wanted to, but there seems to be a separation that, that is increasing between this concept of let's present music in a concert performance, but let's not make it too sacred. That's not cool. And then of course, if we try to do that in a church setting or maybe more of a worshipful, context, then, well, we don't want to make it too, what, elaborate and too secular. Is this sacred, secular division? Is this a problem in the 21st-century world? You could write another book, Cal. 

Calvin Stapert (27:56)
Yeah, well, no, I'm too old for that. Well, I think the sacred-secular divide is more pronounced. this is sacred, this is secular, and never the twain shall. I think it'd be wonderful if, let's just take Messiah, if everybody knows that. It was theater music.

It was, it was entertainment. In fact, when Handel performed his oratorios, he always performed them during Lent. Why Lent? Not so much because it had to do with the suffering and death of Jesus or anything like that. It's because opera was not allowed during.

A. Dennis Sparger (28:52)
Yes, no competition. 

Calvin Stapert (28:54)
You're right. Well, and they had to fill in the concert schedule for those weeks and so that's when the oratorios were performed. So there were those who thought Messiah was too sacred to be performed in a theater and others, that it was too secular to be performed in a church, but, how is that today? I don't know.

A. Dennis Sparger (29:20)
Yeah. At least we don't face that today. 

Ron Klemm (29:22)
Well, here's the thing, In 1941, a professor at Concordia Seminary said, we need to establish. A group, The Bach Society of Saint Louis. We need to establish a performing organization that makes sure that the passions and the B minor mass and the great works of Bach, which are very much essential, are, are indeed performed because we cannot count on the fact that the St. Louis Symphony, God bless the St. Louis Symphony. We love them. We go to the concerts and so on, but we can't assume that they're going to be part of the regular repertory of that, of a group like that. So that's why the Bach Society was established to make sure that these things are, are done, but they're done. in a performance, right? With applause and Dennis comes out and everybody, you know, stands and cheers. And, and, and it's, it's, it's kind of an odd marriage, it seems to me. Do you, do you find that, or am I just way off? 

Calvin Stapert (30:29)
You mean to perform, say, the Passions in a concert hall? 

Ron Klemm (30:34)
Right. 

Calvin Stapert (30:34)
I say more power to you.

A. Dennis Sparger (30:37)
I would agree with that because what, what I, what I find is that if we truly believe that God is all around us, that, you know, whether we're in a church or a concert hall whether it's a worship service or a, performance, you know, with applause from the audience, still the word of God is, is, is being sent out to people, some people who otherwise may not hear it at all and things can be I think people can be touched by that. I, you know, I still remember several years ago when we performed the St. Matthew Passion that one of my orchestra members told me afterwards that she was seated next to someone who said, you know, I don't believe in any of this, but if I ever did, it would be because of this piece. And I realized, you know, the power of, of a St. Matthew Passion, St. John Passion, a Mass in B Minor, the Cantatas you know, even the Brandenburg Concertos, you know, these can reach people in very special ways. It's, it's a part of the evangelism, I think. And, it allows people of many different faiths as well as no faith, to be drawn together. 

Calvin Stapert (31:50)
Yeah, along those same lines, Japan, which is, of course, an almost totally non-Christian country, but the Bach Collegium Japan will perform the St. Matthew Passion every Good Friday to overflow crowds. Masaaki Suzuki, the conductor, says that he's always approached after these, these concerts, people asking him, what's it all about? You know, they, they're, they're moved by it, but they, they, they don't really understand it.

And he said the biggest or the most frequent question or the most frequent source of puzzlement is the whole idea of Christian hope. He says they can't understand Christian hope. In fact, he says, they don't even have a word that could be used. He says, you know, hope is, is a trivial thing, you know, I hope it doesn't rain on our picnic or something like that, you know so, you know, there is something that is connecting. They may not understand it, they may not buy it, but it is connecting. It's a start. 

Ron Klemm (33:21)
I want to end with this. Bach wrote on so many of his works. Most of them I'm told. Three words. What do those three words mean to you? Soli Deo gloria. 

Calvin Stapert (33:39)
Well, they mean to God be the glory. What does it mean to me that Bach put them there? It means a lot to me. It's one indication of his utter seriousness about his faith. It's his seriousness about his vocation. That's the purpose of his vocation, to give God the glory. Another couple of initials that appear sometimes, not nearly with the frequency of the SDG, at the beginning of works.

A. Dennis Sparger (34:18)
Yes. 

Calvin Stapert (34:19)
JJ. Jesu Juva. Jesus help. There's a prayer at the beginning, a prayer for help, and a prayer at the end, give God the glory. Now, you know, some will dismiss this because, other composers put it in theirs well', they might have been serious about it too. I don't know. But, you know, who are, who are we or they to judge? But it’s one of those things that I think puts his work at God's service. It's, it's his vocation.

Ron Klemm (35:25)
You're hearing a portion of Jesu, meine Freude, Jesus My Joy, by Johann Sebastian Bach, from a concert performance in May 2024 by The Bach Society of Saint Louis, Dennis Sparger, music director and conductor.

Calvin Stapert's writings, including My Only Comfort, are published by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan, and Cambridge, England. Available at eerdmans.com or wherever you get your books. We spoke with Cal from the DeVos Communications Center at Calvin University in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Special thanks to production manager Kendrick Satterfield there, as well as Keith and Benita Wolters-Fredlund for making it all possible.

Bach Talk would like to hear from you. Will you do us a quick favor? If you enjoy what you're hearing on this episode or any of our previous episodes, we'd really appreciate it if you would take a moment and rate and review our podcast on your favorite platform, wherever you listen. Your feedback helps us reach more listeners, tell our story and keep the conversation going.

If you have comments, questions, or suggestions about Bach Talk for our team or any of our guests, we'd love to hear them. You can fill out a quick and easy comment form on our website at BachSociety.org/Bach-Talk. Or, send us an email directly, BachTalk@BachSociety. org. The associate producer of Bach Talk is Scott MacDonald.

Marketing and technical assistance provided by Andie Murphy and Carissa Marciniak of Right Relations.

Bach Talk is a registered trademark of The Bach Society of Saint Louis. I'm Ron Klemm.

About Episode 13

Melissa Payton’s journey with The Bach Society of Saint Louis began in 2004 as a Soprano Young Artist. Today, she serves as Executive Director and continues to sing in the Chorus as a Principal Singer. Join Bach Talk host Ron Klemm as they explore Melissa’s musical journey, her role within the organization and what makes The Bach Society so special.

Transcription

(00:00) Ron Klemm
This is Bach Talk.

Author Jim Collins reminded us a number of years ago that true leadership doesn't just happen. Rather, it's a process. One which can be a long-term endeavor to move from good to great.

(00:41) Melissa Payton
I think the unique thing too about The Bach Society is it's, it's a professional organization, but there's still so much family and respect within the organization and I think that comes from the top. You know, things are not perfect, but I feel like there's a level of respect that everyone really has for one another in the organization and it really trickles down.

(01:14) Ron Klemm
That's the voice of executive director of The Bach Society of Saint Louis, Melissa Payton. And we're hearing her not just in conversation, but also as a soprano soloist in 2007.

(01:58) Melissa Payton
I think what we have is special. You know, it's, it's very special in St. Louis, but also nationally, just to really understand how dedicated the organization is to longevity and making a mark and making sure that this music is heard and continues to flourish and people continue to know about it and it's continued to be performed because if not us who?

(02:25) Ron Klemm
Hello, I'm Ron Klemm. Welcome to Bach Talk. Today I hope you'll indulge a little self promotion not because we're bragging or begging for attention But because the legacy of The Bach Society of Saint Louis is worthy of attention as a global model. After all, not many choral organizations have been around for 80 plus years.

And leadership has played a key role in that legacy. Current music director and conductor Dennis Sparger has provided the artistic vision since 1986. During his tenure, the administrative side of things has been led by some remarkable visionary people. Executive Director Melissa Payton currently holds that responsibility, a personification of the organization's commitment of promoting from within in that continuing decades long journey from good to great.

Today, let's meet this vital member of the Bach team. Who's been a part of The Bach Society of Saint Louis for? 

(04:00) Melissa Payton
A little over 20 years. 

(04:03) Ron Klemm
Starting as? 

(04:04) Melissa Payton
I was a soprano young artist. 

(04:07) Ron Klemm
Tell me about those days. 

(04:09) Melissa Payton
I was young. I wasn't married. I was thrilled just out of college and I went to school here in St. Louis and I was asked to come back and sing a solo as an alumni.

I wish I could remember what it was. I bet you Dennis remembers. So Dennis, our music director came to that performance. He's so great about getting out and going to so many performances in the city. And he came to that performance and heard me sing and afterward came up to me and said, have you ever heard of The Bach Society of Saint Louis? And I said, no. Growing up in St. Louis my whole life, being involved in a lot of music and singing ever since I was a little girl, I had not ever heard of The Bach Society and he started telling me about our Young Artist Program and how it's so beneficial to young singers. And he invited me to audition.

So I did and he liked me and I started as a young artist in 2004 I think. 

(05:07) Ron Klemm
A couple of things First is that people didn't know about The Bach Society 20 years ago people of your age, college, that has changed 

(05:17) Melissa Payton
I agree.

(05:17) Ron Klemm
Thanks to you and others like you who've made sure that this is a this is a big deal in town and beyond um, I But the other thing is you, uh, got involved with The Bach Society as a young artist, a program that is probably unique to a lot of organizations.

Tell us a little bit about that, about the Young Artist Program. 

(05:39) Melissa Payton
Well, I grew up and majored in vocal performance and thought that I wanted to be an opera singer. And then I realized maybe it's not so glamorous to be traveling the world and living in hotel rooms. I mean, it's pretty cool, but I started thinking about how much I may be away from my family and was dating my now husband at the time.

Um, and what I learned in that experience is that there are a lot of young artists programs and opera companies all over the U.S. and beyond. Um, it's pretty common for a large midsize to large opera company to have a young artists program, but it's rare for choral organizations to have a young artist program.

And what I didn't know as a young singer is, you know, there were so many opportunities to learn about performing operatic repertoire, but the oratorio repertoire, there's not a lot of opportunity for young singers to learn that rep, to cover the solos, to perform it. And so I really felt like this was a unique opportunity that The Bach Society has for young singers to come,

to engage and sing as members of the chorus, to cover these solos, to meet these wonderful soloists that we have coming in from all over the world that are at the top of their game. We had opportunities to perform at fundraising events. We got special coachings and got to participate in masterclasses.

It was a really unique opportunity while also engaging and meeting different singers and educators and conductors in the St. Louis area and making a lot of strong connections that way. So it was a lot of fun. I had so much fun. I remember singing at this one, uh, fundraising event we had, and I think I sang this kind of love song and ended up inviting.

Dennis, the maestro, up on stage and he was a little caught off guard. But do you remember, were you there? 

(07:34) Ron Klemm
I can't, I can't remember the details. 

(07:38) Melissa Payton
I think it was maybe I've got a crush on you or something. I ended up singing that song and, uh, invited him up and he was blushing at first, but you know, Dennis, he's an actor so he ate it up. 

(07:48) Ron Klemm
Oh, he played right along. 

(07:49) Melissa Payton
It's, it's fun to learn to perform in different kinds of situations like that for fundraisers or for small donor events. I remember going to people's houses and singing My Funny Valentine on their doorstep, thanking them for being a donor and it was just a lot of fun for me as a young singer.

(08:07) Ron Klemm
Well, I remember, if you don't mind a personal story, I remember in Powell Symphony Hall singing the, uh, Rutter Magnificat and there was this beautiful soprano singing one of the arias, and I thought, okay, Bach Society's in good shape. 

(08:24) Melissa Payton
That was so fun. Getting the opportunity to sing at Powell Hall for an audience of, you 2000 plus was so just unique and exciting.

I also remember being on stage at Powell Hall and I was, it wasn't that year. It was, I think the prior year there was a tenor soloist myself and maybe one more singer, and it was my turn to sing. We were all seated at that point. So I stood up ready to sing and I'm take a step forward and my, skirt is stuck underneath my chair.

So I take a step forward and get jerked back immediately, right up back up against my chair, and probably looked a little silly on stage. And I thought, okay, well, this is how it goes and then I realized it wasn't my chair, it was the tenors chair that was on my dress so. 

(09:12) Ron Klemm
He wanted to get closer to you. 

(09:14) Melissa Payton
You can't trust those tenors. You know, well, you can't. 

(09:17) Ron Klemm
It could have been a lot worse. Put it that way. Tell us about how you got That involved your schooling and your family and so on. Where did you, where did you get the bug to sing? 

(09:28) Melissa Payton
Probably from my dad, uh, growing up. I grew up in church, and he sang in this wonderful gospel quartet. So my dad never learned to read music, which I find very interesting now as a musician, and sang everything by ear.

Uh, he was a low, low bass, so I remember going to his rehearsals and hearing him sing in church. And, uh, You know, he was the one at the end of the song that had the, Ooh.

(09:55) Ron Klemm
The slide. 

(09:55) Melissa Payton
Yeah. That like makes the whole church shake.

(09:57) Ron Klemm
Yeah. Your teeth rattle. 

(09:58) Melissa Payton
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I always thought that was pretty cool.

But growing up, we had, you know, music in the house. A lot of music in the house. Uh, my, my mother, God love her loves music, but cannot carry a tune in a bucket. Um, so a lot of that love for music came from my dad. My mom grew up in a musical family. Um, her mother and her brother are very great singers. Um, so a lot of that was instilled in me at a very young age.

We went to a very musical church. We had multiple choirs when we were kids, children's choir, a couple of different teen choirs and our music director there used to put on these huge productions. At Christmas time, we'd have like camels walking down the aisle and, uh, we'd perform these big spectaculars at the park nearby during the 4th of July.

So it was a lot of fun to be involved in all those different singing opportunities. Growing up, we did choir tours and most of my singing was done at church. Um, I had a music teacher, an elementary school music teacher who also went to our church, who told my mom when I was 13, this girl, you know, she has something special.

I think, I think you need to get her in voice lessons. So I started taking private voice lessons at that age. And then, uh, when I got into high school, I had a fantastic choral director, uh, who was a wonderful man who you knew, I think, Ike Eichenberger, choral director at McClure North High School. And his wife, Mary, was the orchestra director.

They had no children, but all of those kids at that school were their kids and their love. And they really invested so much time and passion into their students through many, many, many years of teaching and so many, music educators and choral directors and conductors and singers and musicians have come from that generation as a result of their teaching.

And, uh, you know, one day Mr. Ike, as we fondly called him, uh, looked at me and said, you know, you really have something special, Melissa. And I think this is something you should really pursue as a career, uh, I had no confidence to do that before he said that to me. And so I graduated and went on to get a degree in vocal performance. 

(12:13) Ron Klemm
At Missouri Baptist College.

(12:15) Melissa Payton
Yes. Missouri Baptist College. Yes. 

(12:17) Ron Klemm
Now University. 

(12:17) Melissa Payton
Yes. In my freshman year, they broke ground for that huge facility that they have, the huge arts center there. So it was really fun to be a part of that initial growth of that department and to see now how much it's flourished. Their music and arts program and theater program has really flourished since then

and I'm still very involved there and have a lot of colleagues that I met there that are also music teachers and educators, so. 

(12:42) Ron Klemm
And still great friends of The Bach Society. 

(12:44) Melissa Payton
Yes. 

(12:45) Ron Klemm
Over the years. We're very grateful for them. Was there ever a time, like in college or any other time really, where you felt, I want to use the word calling, where you said, this is what I want to do?

(12:58) Melissa Payton
That's a good question. 

(13:00) Ron Klemm
Well, thank you. That's why I'm here. 

(13:01) Melissa Payton
You know, you know, I always knew I wanted to, to sing because I just find so much joy and love in that. And even now as a mom, as an executive director, as wearing so many different hats. There are times when it's a Monday night and we have rehearsal because, you know, I still sing in The Bach Society Chorus now.

(13:20) Ron Klemm
I do see you over there goofing off in the soprano section. Yes. 

(13:24) Melissa Payton
And there are times when I'm tired and I think, goodness, do I need to still be doing this and coming every Monday night? You know, nine to 10 months out of the year, but it's during those times where I'm able to sit back and I'm not anybody's mom, I'm not anybody's executive director, I'm not anybody's wife, well I am, but in that moment, I'm a singer. And I know that that's, you know, what God created me to be. And that's a passion of mine, you know, that I just really find myself in. And if I left that I would be leaving a piece of myself. So yes, I always knew that I wanted that to be a part of my life. And as I I'm very type a, some people call me type a plus very organized. 

(14:08) Ron Klemm
That's a good grade. 

(14:09) Melissa Payton
Very organized, and, and so this, this job fits me really well because I. have the opportunity to organize things and be on the administrative side of a musical organization that I love and I really care about singing in and I really love our message and our mission and the music that we present. 

(14:29) Ron Klemm
That's Executive Director of The Bach Society of Saint Louis, Melissa Payton. I'm Ron Klemm and this is Bach Talk.

At some point there was a transition. And you went from being a singer only to assisting our then executive director, and then moved into the position. Tell me about that whole series of events. 

(15:10) Melissa Payton
At that time, as many singers and musicians do, I had many jobs. I was waiting tables. I was teaching private voice lessons at a local music store, which I loved. Oh, that was so much fun. I taught mostly high school girls and it was like part music teacher or part voice teacher, part therapist, you know, you'd hear all of the things going on in their lives. 

(15:36) Ron Klemm
Oh, sure, because that brings it out of people, doesn't it? 

(15:39) Melissa Payton
Yeah, it does. It was a lot of fun. And then I began working, uh, in a deeper role at that music store and I was managing all of the private lessons that came in. We had about 50 teachers and I think 500 lessons weekly. So I was managing that and I had done that for a while and, you know, it was looking for something else in that admin role that was still connected to music.

So Elaine Smith, our executive director of The Bach Society at that time, came to me and said, You know, we're starting this campaign. I'm going to need some extra help. Is that something you might be interested in? And I said, sure. I mean, you know, she had to get it approved by the board and all, all of that.

So it took a little while, but I came on and helped her with that campaign and took on some extra roles. And then, She had another motive, which I may not have known about at the time, but knew that she was approaching retirement and hopefully wanting to groom me a little bit for that position. So then, you know, I kind of worked under her for about a year and she retired and they interviewed me and thought I was good enough.

So, you know, here you are, you're stuck with me. And that was 10, I think I'm going into my 11th season. So that was 2013. 

(17:00) Ron Klemm
In one sentence, describe the job. 

(17:03) Melissa Payton
Many hats and many costume changes. 

(17:07) Ron Klemm
Very good! Not a complete sentence, but I'll take it. In other words, there's a tremendous amount of variety in the, in the task.

When it's time to put boots on the ground, there's a lot more to it, isn't there? 

(17:21) Melissa Payton
There is. And I learn more and more of that every year. I'm a lot better, I hope, and I think now than I was when I first started and the organization has really grown, you know, since I first started. We're doing so many different things and I'm so proud of the work that our team has done and I'm so proud of our board.

We had some great, strong leadership come in, uh, into the board right when I started as executive director and really made a huge difference in the organization and just really started thinking more strategically about the future and investing in the organization and really focusing on what the important things are for us to grow and truly make an impact now and into the future.

And so it's been really exciting to be a part of that growth, in, some ways scary to be a part of that growth and knowing that you need support around you. Uh, but it's, the board is fantastic and has, has just been so instrumental in our growth and at the financial stability that we currently have. And I will say, I think the unique thing too about the Bach Society is it's, it's a professional organization, but there's still so much family and respect within the organization.

I think that comes from the top and I have colleagues that work for other organizations and it is not. You know, things are not perfect, but we're not having a ton of drama and behind the scenes fights at board meetings in between staff. I feel like there's a level of respect that everyone really has for one another in the organization, and it really trickles down.

(19:06) Ron Klemm
Describe the structure a little bit. You have a staff, minimal staff. 

(19:10) Melissa Payton
Sure. Uh, I'm the executive director, so I'm basically the head of the administrative staff and I have an executive assistant as well. We have a marketing team, a small marketing team that I manage as well. And on the artistic side is our music director and conductor, Dennis Sparger.

His assistant conductor, Steven Eros. And then everything artistic falls underneath him, our music director, accompanist, all of the members of the chorus. And then we have a board of directors that manages all of us. We have about 20 directors right now, I think, that manage the organization.

(19:44) Ron Klemm
And where does that board come from? How do you get on the board? 

(19:48) Melissa Payton
You buy your way in.

(19:50) Ron Klemm
Well, no wonder. I got rotated off. 

(19:56) Melissa Payton
So many different ways. A lot of times it's connections with other board members. Many folks have a, at least a love or a background in some sort of music and believe in what we're doing. Some are educators, some are physicians, you know, some, we have quite a number of lawyers right now, believe it or not.

(20:16) Ron Klemm
A room full of lawyers and they get along, this can't be true. 

(20:20) Melissa Payton
But we're always looking for folks with different talents and different things to bring to the table. And, you know, that this person can offer and, and help us with and get on board and be passionate about, you know. 

(20:32) Ron Klemm
There was a time when fundraising was primarily, well, we try to get, uh, you know, as many grants as we can from here and there and then we go to the big corporations and we get big corporate dollars. Life as we know it has changed. And now there's a lot of, uh, Uh, individual attention that's required to, to fund an organization like ours. Tell us about that, that shift. 

(20:59) Melissa Payton
It has changed quite a bit in the 10 plus years that I've been here. Our primary way of getting funding and income was through corporate donations. Our major grantors in the area. And there has been a major shift, not just in the St. Louis area, but nationally that we've been hearing from other similar sized arts organizations. Corporations are just not necessarily, especially in St. Louis, interested in funding the arts. It's just not a priority at this point in time. So that funding has been really dwindling, especially in the past two or three years post COVID and we've been finding more success in our individual donors, as you say, through concert sponsorships. And I've found more than anything in this job, learning about building relationships and keeping those connections with your funders, with leaders in the community.

That is the most important thing that I do to keep that success of the organization, engaging our funders, reminding them of why their support is so important, because it really is. It's changed to be close to 50 percent of our income that we rely on. There are some private foundations where you can receive some income from, but it's really our individual donors that, are sustaining us and investing in our future by maybe giving through a legacy gift that keeps giving after their departure from this earth or by supporting a concert series or by making a one time wonderful gift that they may want to invest in presenting a major work every three years as we've seen done before. So it's wonderful to see people step up in that way. And I think the fact that we are over 80 years old, we have built relationships with so many people over the years and that's been to our benefit because we have such a long history with so many musicians, singers, audience members that continue to come and believe and invest in our future. 

(23:13) Ron Klemm
I want to talk more about that right after the break. That's Executive Director Melissa Payton of The Bach Society of Saint Louis and I'm Ron Klemm. This is Bach Talk.

What makes The Bach Society unique? What makes it different from other organizations that otherwise might seem on the surface to be similar? 

(24:15) Melissa Payton
Well, I definitely think we're unique in St. Louis. There are probably other organizations nationally that do similar things to what we do. But in St. Louis, there is, there's no other organization that is doing what we do.

No other choral organization that is investing in young students and investing in music educators and music education. There's no other organization that's really dedicated to preserving these oratorial works by J. S. Bach and those inspired by him. And by the way, we don't just sing Bach. I'm sure you've mentioned that once or twice or twenty times. Because that would just be hard. 

(24:59) Ron Klemm
Well, it would, it would be impossible, impossible, it would be unsustainable over time. 

(25:05) Melissa Payton
But I love that about us. 

(25:05) Ron Klemm
But the great works of Bach provide the foundation for what The Bach Society does, and it provides the impetus for fundraising and so on and this is what you were talking about earlier about having, you know, every few years certain works are absolutely written in stone. 

(25:23) Melissa Payton
Well, and the symphony is not able to perform some of these smaller works that you have with the chamber orchestra It's just not something that they do or that they feel will make money and so we have this unique opportunity to move this type of music forward and forward Into our schools and remind students and our audience why it's so valuable and so important and specifically sacred music how important that is and how moving it can be as an audience member and as a, as a singer, you know, there have been so many times where we've been performing and we're moved to the point a couple of times where I've moved to the, been moved to the point where I can't sing because it's just that emotional.

And if it's that way for us, how is it for the people in the audience that are connecting with that music in the same way? So I think what we have is special. You know, it's, it's very special in St. Louis, but also nationally just to really understand how dedicated the organization is to longevity and making a mark and making sure that this music is heard and continues to flourish and people continue to know about it and it's continued to be performed because if not us, who?

(26:45) Ron Klemm
If not us, who? I mean, I think that's what our founder, Dr. William Heine, said at the very, very beginning. Let's, I mean, let's put an organization together that specializes in this kind of music. And lo and behold, here we are. What provides the stability? Is it the repertoire? Is it the people? What provides, uh, you know, pushing a century's worth of stability in an organization? Not a lot of turnover. Uh, in, in staff or, or, uh, other aspects of the organization. What is it? 

(27:20) Melissa Payton
That's also a good question. I think it has to be all of the above, right? It has to start with passion and people that believe and take the time to invest their money and their energy into what you're doing. It takes, as I said, positivity and respect from the top, commitment, discipline, but I think it all starts with a love and passion and a willingness to invest in that. And, you know, it really is talented, young singers that come and want to work with us and a leader that's willing to take some risks sometimes that he may or may not. Want to take no, he's not forced into anything. Let's be, let's rest assured for that. 

(28:08) Ron Klemm
Well, let's let's examine that for just a moment because what you basically said was if you want to exist for 80 plus years you have to sometimes Get out of your own comfort zone. Am I right? 

(28:22) Melissa Payton
Yes.

(28:23) Ron Klemm
And, and have you felt that too for you? 

(28:26) Melissa Payton
Definitely. 

(28:26) Ron Klemm
Okay. You don't want to cite any examples, probably.

(28:31) Melissa Payton
Well, you have to take a look around and say, you know, are we still, is, is what we're still doing relevant? And if it's not, then how are we going to continue to remain relevant in 2024. And how are we going to continue to connect with young people and with our audience, if we're not presenting things in a way that they will hear and accept and love.

So I think you always have to be thinking about changing things up. And sometimes. We'll hear, you know, we'll be in a meeting with this committee or that committee, well, we tried that one time. Well, but we tried that 20 years ago. So let's try it in a different way now. It could be different. So I think, I think if anything, honestly, COVID has taught me to be more flexible, to take more risks and say, well, we've never tried that before, but why not? You know, what's the worst that could happen? I mean, we're thankfully in a good situation. We're not going to lose a ton of money and be millions of dollars in debt by making a, you know, taking a risk. But I think it's important to have leadership and a board that's willing to do some of that to test the waters.

(29:39) Ron Klemm
You've had so many great experiences, uh, with The Bach Society over the years. Name one. What's the one thing that all of a sudden sticks out that gives you joy? 

(29:51) Melissa Payton
Something that came to mind first is kind of a memory. I guess, now Ron is like getting me emotional. You were waiting for it. Um, I remember, I talked previously a little bit earlier about my high school choral director and how instrumental he was.

It was in my, probably my first four, four or five years as executive director. And we were at Powell hall for our Christmas Candlelight Concert, and it was a very successful year and I was walking through the halls, I was rushing from a donor reception to go backstage and I saw him in the lobby and I didn't know he was coming and I hadn't seen him for years.

And I was so excited to go up to him and say, Mr. Ike, oh my goodness, it's so good to see you. And, and he said, oh, I hear you're executive director of The Bach Society. How exciting. And just, I was like, seeing in that moment all of those people that were there that we worked so hard to market that concert and knowing You know, none none of that would have been really possible without him and his time that he invested in me and wanting, wanting him to be proud of me in that moment, you know And also being very proud myself in that moment of how much that I had done and how excited I was that he was there to see it and witness it.

And, um, I think I'm crying because, you know, we lost him in December of 2020 to COVID. And we have since been really, um, trying to plan fundraising events to raise money for a foundation that he put together, he and his wife to benefit students in the district where we grew up that are pursuing a career in music.

So I've been very involved in that. Um, and he continues to make a difference even now after he's gone. And I just think that was one very special, unexpected moment that year at Christmas and the lobby of Powell hall. And he probably, I almost started crying when I saw him and he probably thought I was just crazy, but it was a, it was a very special moment. Full circle moment. 

(32:01) Ron Klemm
We are all products of the people who have influenced our lives and, uh, his influences live on in you and, uh, we're very grateful for all that you've done for The Bach Society and I can say that because I've been around a long time. 

(32:19) Melissa Payton
Thank you. 

(32:19) Ron Klemm
Thank you for all you do and for spending a little time with us.

(32:23) Melissa Payton
Thanks, Ron. 

(32:24) Ron Klemm
Executive Director, Melissa Payton. I'm Ron Klemm. This is Bach Talks.

Musical portions today featured selections from concert performances by The Bach Society of Saint Louis, Dennis Sparger, music director and conductor.

Bach Talk would like to hear from you. Will you do us a quick favor? If you enjoy what you're hearing on this episode, or any of our previous episodes, We'd really appreciate it if you'd take a moment to rate and review our podcast on your favorite platform. Wherever you listen, your feedback helps us reach more listeners, tell our story, and keep the conversation going.

If you have comments, questions, or suggestions about Bach Talk for our team or any of our guests, we'd love to hear them. You can fill out the quick and easy comment form on our website. at BachSociety. org slash BachTalk. Or, send us an email directly. BachTalk at BachSociety. org. That's BachTalk, B A C H T A L K, BachTalk at BachSociety.org.

The associate producer of BachTalk is Scott MacDonald. Marketing and technical assistance provided by Andie Murphy and Charissa Marciniak of The Right Relations. And of course, special thanks to Bach Society Executive Director, Melissa Payton.

Bach Talk is a registered trademark of The Bach Society of Saint Louis. I'm Ron Klemm.

About Episode 12

What exactly is a countertenor? Join host Ron Klemm as he explores this unique voice type with one of the finest in the field, Kansas City-based Jay Carter. In this episode, Jay shares his experiences and the challenges of navigating the rarified air of countertenor singing, all while making it sound effortless. With co-host Scott MacDonald, they delve into the nuances of performing at such dizzying vocal heights, offering insights into the artistry and technical skill required.

Transcription

(00:00) Scott MacDonald
This is Bach Talk. The human voice is a remarkable instrument. It can span vast octaves, and evoke the full spectrum of colors. The highest soprano can give you goosebumps. The lowest bass can rattle your teeth.

But what about the middle? Where do those typically male and female roles meet? And where do they overlap?

That's countertenor Jay Carter, singing an alto aria from Bach's St. Matthew Passion. The countertenor voice is rarely encountered, and it can be a shock the first time one hears it even for Jay himself. 

(01:32) Jay Carter
I did not expect to be singing as a countertenor. And in fact, the first time I heard a countertenor, I hated it. And never say never, because sometimes you find yourself doing things you don't expect.

(01:44) Scott MacDonald
Hello, I'm associate producer Scott MacDonald. Welcome to Bach Talk. Jay Carter has earned a reputation as one of America's leading countertenors. He first appeared with The Bach Society of Saint louis in 2012. That's the performance we just heard. Since then, he's returned to St. Louis often, joining music director Dennis Sparger and The Bach Society Chorus and Orchestra in Bach's B Minor Mass, both the St. John and St. Matthew Passions, plus Bach Cantatas. As a leading interpreter of Baroque repertoire, Jay has appeared with acclaimed conductors and performance groups around the globe. His love for collaboration makes him a sought after soloist. But what about that incredible voice? Ron Klemm spoke with Jay when he was in St. Louis this past spring. Today, we'll dive into their conversation. They begin by laying out exactly what a countertenor is and how this unique role evolved, starting with the name. 

(02:44) Jay Carter
It's kind of a confusing label, uh, and the, the origin of the label is messy and, and hard to define, but essentially it means the uppermost of the male voices.

And by, by default, it's a part that's above the tenor part. In the old days, you had chanted music and when music began to get more complex, they called the main part, the tenor part where the tune was. And then there were composed parts on either side of the tenor part. There was the countertenor bassus and the countertenor altus.

And at some point the label altus became used in some places more than it was countertenor, but it basically means a high male voice that sings above the tenor range. And usually it occupies the same range as a contralto, which is a female voice, or a mezzo soprano, which is, you know, again, generally a female voice.

(03:36) Ron Klemm
But not always. 

(03:36) Jay Carter
But not always. Part of the absence of, of females singing music in certain periods was a degree of misogyny. And a lot of it stems from a forbidding of women singing within the church that comes from the New Testament. That's been implemented and thought about in different ways at different times.

And I'm very happy to report that from about 1700 onward, uh, there's, there's less of a prescription against women singing in public at least. And over time that becomes extended to sacred music within the church. The solution to that problem was to have boy trebles singing some of those soprano lines.

And in the German tradition, When the boys voices were changing, they often sang those alto lines as well. There were also grown men who had high voices, uh, or used a mixture of falsetto and chest voice and would occupy those same parts, solo lines and choral lines. There's also a counterpart to this that's kind of a sticky subject, and that's the notion of the castrati, which are primarily an Italian by-product of the forbidding of music within the church being sung by women and on the stage. And that's a radical solution to a problem that, you know, fortunately, I think the last castrato died around 1910 or so, Alessandro Moreschi. And we have some recordings of that, but there was a large industry of, of producing singers who might potentially have a stage career and most of them washed out and a lot of them became the soprano voices in the papal chapel. Uh, they did a lot of work with an opera. Handel worked with Castrati extensively. But Bach, on the other hand, was in very different places and that infrastructure wasn't a part of Bach's, uh, Bach's work at St. Thomas or at his other postings. So, Those were generally boy sopranos and falsettists or high-voiced males singing those parts. I fit an odd niche then with what I do that straddles about five different voice types. And a lot of it is essentially that trash can lump diagnosis of contralto mezzo-soprano and the rep that goes in that mix.

It's not what I started out doing. I did not expect to be singing as a countertenor when I was a kid in high school, getting ready to start studying music. Yeah. And in fact, the first time I heard a countertenor, I hated it and never say never because sometimes you find yourself doing things you don't expect.

And, uh, as an undergraduate, I worked primarily as a tenor and I had a very patient teacher, but we discovered there was something there. And. I was so attracted to the repertoire and he encouraged me not to make an immediate choice about voice type and to just sing a healthy tone wherever I was singing.

And I'm really grateful to him for that because it left those doors open for a long time. And I think it means that the countertenor singing that I do is different than what other folks do. 

(06:33) Ron Klemm
How? 

(06:34) Jay Carter
There's more of a mix of chest voice in what I do. And if you were, you know, for your armchair enthusiasts that are out there wanting to go on YouTube and listen to different singers, all you have to do is go listen to two different countertenors.One is Alfred Deller, who was kind of at the beginning of that in the 30s. 

(06:50) Ron Klemm
A Deller concert was very popular.

(06:51) Jay Carter
Was huge. Yeah. Deller uses primarily a falsetto-based technique for, to make that sound. And he was singing that.

(07:05) Ron Klemm
Now describe that, for our listeners who don't understand.

(07:07) Jay Carter
Changed voices, male voices, uh, are able to kind of flip into this alternate register where just the edges of the vocal cord are vibrating.

It's, it's not the whole thing vibrating. And it means that the pitches are high and they're produced much more easily than a full-throated chest voice. You could say I occupy some of the same range as high tenors singing Italian opera or French opera from the late 19th century. But the production system is different.

And so the sound is, um, it doesn't sound as physically rooted and, and efforted. Uh, it's, it's more effortless and flowy. And then the American Russell Oberlin, who just passed away here a few years ago. 

They sang the exact same repertoire, but if you listen to those voices, you hear that Professor Oberlin was a high-voiced male voice that was using his chest voice.

And my work really kind of blends both but leans heavily toward the Russell Oberlin school of a little bit more bodily tone in the sound

(08:54) Scott MacDonald
That's countertenor Jay Carter along with The Bach Society Orchestra conducted by Dennis Sparger He's singing a portion of the alto aria Qui sedes from Bach's Mass in B Minor with Ron Klemm. I'm Scott McDonald and this is Bach Talk. We'll be right back.

(09:16) Ron Klemm
I have a friend who says that he, he didn't find Bach. Bach found him. What is your experience with finding Bach and Handel and all these great Baroque composers? Did they tap you on the shoulder? 

(09:34) Jay Carter
You know, I think the first time I really began to dig into that material when I was in, when I was an undergraduate, at least with respect to Handel, uh, I found something attractive about it, but I just, I felt like it was a little bit stodgy.

It wasn't immediately approachable to me. And it wasn't until I started working with people who were trying to enliven the material, and in many cases, it was to try to keep us undergrads awake and invested in what we were doing, uh, that I began to really pay attention to the interlocking nature of that as a, not as a listener, but as an active participant in making the music.

Uh, Bach was the same way, but as undergraduates. There's a, there's a tendency to kind of leave Bach's music to the side because it's so darned tricky and it doesn't give you any help at all in terms of technique. In fact, it pulls everything that you know out of you and then demands more and then kicks you up and down and leaves you beside the road.

(10:32) Ron Klemm
And the slightest, uh, deviation from that. And you're. 

(10:35) Jay Carter
And that's the thing, you know, Handel, I don't get nervous about doing a new piece by Handel with, with people I don't know. Uh, I get nervous doing pieces of Bach. I know very well with people I know very well because it's just so tightly constructed. So Bach was always something that I was looking at even early on and kind of holding in high regard but saying, my God, that's hard, and I don't know that I can do that. And slowly but surely, like any artisanal trade, you learn enough basic technique that you can at least approach the problems that are there and begin to kind of break them down one by one. Bach was already in the room waiting for me and, you know, was ready to tear me to shreds right at the beginning.

(11:18) And, uh, I'm, I'm glad we've come to a, at least detente with one another. It's, it's music I love singing and that I respect greatly, but I also know that it's, it's kind of like stunt work. The potential for failure is, is loss of life and limb. 

(11:34) Ron Klemm
What, what, what creates the greatest struggle for you?

(11:39) Jay Carter
For me, it's every single layer that you choose to, or lens that you choose to view box work through, uh, is perfectly constructed and tough as nails on its own. So even if you're just looking at the musical aspect of things, there is this basic musical line that's kind of under the structure that he has ornamented within an inch of its life.

And your job as a performer is to not only convey the clarity of the line that's under the surface but to also deliver all the ornamental material in such a way that it doesn't detract from the whole. The lines are also extremely lines, long. Sometimes the phrases are so tightly constructed that there's no room to breathe in it.

And that's just some of the musical problems that you have to solve when you're working with Bach's music. Then there's the issue of text for a singer. We don't always remember this, but one of Bach's teaching duties in his work at the Thomas Kirche was to at least oversee the instruction of the boys in rhetoric.

I don't know about you, but rhetoric was outside of the curriculum when I came through the school system. And it's not coming back in the form that it was anytime soon. So it, it means that singers, especially if we haven't been autodidact about that, or just exceptionally clever, we're going to have to do that work on our own and the rhetorical layer in Bach's music is an equal part of the construction as everything else. And then there's the technique, which is almost instrumental in nature. It's like the Arbenz book for brass, where you just go to the back and there are theme and variations on Carnival of Venice that do everything, and Bach expects you to do all of those with no break.

It's amazing material. It's also intensely difficult material to say nothing of the poor listeners. If it's not done by people who are, who are really thoughtful about the work they do. 

(13:29) Ron Klemm
I'll tell you what amazes me. Everything that you're talking about right now and all these incredible, difficult and high hurdles that you have to navigate. Bach had to do this every week. What? Are you kidding me?

(13:44) Jay Carter
I know. And one really wonders whether or not. What was coming out from the choir stalls in the Tomas Kirche was, was really representative of what was on the page or if it was, you know, it was him, him writing as an idealist and being happy for what humans were able to do that in many ways pushes them past the edges of the extremes. I, I, if I had a time machine and I had a chance to go back, I think one of my first stops would probably be Sunday morning and about 1726 or so after Bach had been in Leipzig for a few years, just to see what the lay of the land wasn't here, what I was hearing.

But then I think, and I realized he was also inherently responsible for the musical instruction of these. of the boy singers in the, in the system and also of the men after a period of time as well, they had kind of come up through the system. They didn't have anything else to do. They didn't have television to watch at night so they could practice their scales.

So, you know, I weigh both sides of it and I, I strongly suspect that what was being done there, there were enough invested in that system that what came out was, was probably pretty darn glorious, um, although I'm sure there were a few goose eggs every now and then, cause the music is just to premiere that material and not have any performance tradition for it going back that, that to me sounds terrifying.

Um, but yeah, time machine, I'm going to Leipzig for at least a few days to look around and to try to, try to get that. And if I met Bach on the street, I don't know that, you know, I don't know whether I would give him a hug or, or trip him because it's a little bit of both. It's, you know. 

(15:21) Ron Klemm
Yeah. Well, I can tell you what else it is, uh, because my wife and I had the chance to go and worship on a Sunday morning in the Thomas Kircher and I, I could understand about 5 percent of it.

But, when those chorales and those, those, uh, hymns come along and you sing them, I mean, the, the tears just, they're, they're unstoppable because now suddenly, language notwithstanding, we are connected and that's what Bach did, didn't he? 

(15:51) Jay Carter
And I think that's what all good art does is it provides a sense of, uh, transport to other places, other times, other philosophies and ways of thinking.

And for me, when I'm, In my evaluatory role about whether or not something's good art or not, that's one of the things that I look at. Does it, does it provide me with a sense of. belonging to something that's outside of my realm of experience and bring me in. I'm headed to Leipzig actually this, this spring for Bachfest. It'll be my first time there and I am equal parts 

(16:22) Ron Klemm
Terrified 

(16:23) Jay Carter
And terrified. Yeah, it's, it's the nausea that goes with a roller coaster ride, which I don't do roller coasters, so Leipzig is, is it for me.

(17:22) Scott MacDonald
This is a brief portion of Von Den Stricken from Bach's St. John Passion, countertenor Jake Carter, along with The Bach Society Orchestra conducted by Dennis Sparger. With Ron Klemm, I'm Scott McDonald and this is Bach Talk.

(17:45) Ron Klemm
So much goes into a particular performance of Bach's work. You are in town to perform with The Bach Society and you come with a certain, what's the word, a certain idea, a certain approach. And then you come to the first rehearsal and the maestro is there. He asked me to ask you this question, by the way. And he or she, whoever it is, has a slightly different approach. And now you have to decide, okay, how are we going to collaborate? I mean, the maestro is always right, but how do you, how do you come to that point of collaboration? 

(18:27) Jay Carter
I know from my vantage as a, as a singer, as a guest, Uh, when I'm, when I'm coming to the table, um, I have to trust that the person that I'm working with and that's leading the ensemble, uh, not only knows the space in which we're going but also knows the musicians with, with whom they're working.

You can, you can get away with some haphazardness and, and some other pieces, but, but in, in Bach, those, those individual ideas have a really profound impact on how the thing goes. Knowing that they know their orchestra, they know the space that we're in, and they also know their overall larger scale idea that they're hoping for in that particular presentation of the piece.

I have a lot of trust in saying, I'm, I'm going to take a page from their book and I try to make sure that in my preparatory work that I'm always working at a variety of tempi and dealing with a variety of ideas so that when we're in the room, kind of feeling each other out like jazz musicians, finding out what works in the room more often than not,

I find that the conductor if they have a differing viewpoint from mine, has arrived at that from the vantage of being a perfectly sane, rational human being who knows what they're talking about. And rather than combating against that, uh, I, I try to participate in that as much as possible. The good news is, is most conductors that I'm fortunate enough to work with at this stage in my career are people who feel that way from their side of the podium as well.

And it really does become a collaboration of ideas. One of the hard things about the John Passion, and in one of the arias that I'm doing, Es ist vollbracht, that's in part two, uh, is that there is an incredibly important obbligato partner for me. It's, it's like a little sonata for a couple of different soloists.

(20:18) Ron Klemm
Instrumental soloists. 

(20:20) Jay Carter
Instrumentalists. I'm fortunate to know the gamba player that's playing for this. It's Ken Kulosa, whom I've, I've known Ken now probably for 20 years in a lot of different capacities, uh, and with different ensembles in town. And I know coming in a little bit about what Ken's probably going to want tempo-wise, but also having a lot of trust for his playing and the way that he does things and that sense of familiarity, it really helps. But what I have found is when you don't know who the obbligato player is, I feel like it's part of my job as the singer to. to try to find out what their thoughts are. But I, I tried to just be really thoughtful about it. I, I trust my fellow colleagues on stage to understand their instrument and their task and to find a way for us to move in tandem.

What I'm finding increasingly in this field and the way I have found the field primarily in my work over the last 20 or so years, is that most people in this business have a heart for collaboration to begin with, even if the collaboration involves a complete dog and pony show of 15 million different constituent parts.

There's a, there's a real sense of that. And, and I think it's that way within the musicians as well. And thank God for that, because otherwise the work would be intolerable. 

(21:34) Ron Klemm
By definition, it is an ensemble. You have to come together at some point. Otherwise, you know, a bunch of individuals, it's just not going to work.

(21:44) Jay Carter
It just doesn't work. And my work as an academic, I'm coming off of a period right now where the, the students that I am working with. at the conservatory at UMKC are really operatically focused in their work. Although I've dabbled in operatic work, that's not really been the crux of my, of my work as a performer or as a teacher, except for the last couple of years.

And one of the things I am consistently trying to impress on them, whether or not they're doing a role on stage with orchestra or whether they're doing an art song and one of their degree recitals, that their work is always collaborative. It's almost never exclusively about them. There are always other considerations and what I'm finding increasingly is, is that the students who are aware of that, or who are becoming aware of that, there's a layer to their work that feels live rather than synthetic. 

(22:38) Ron Klemm
What does Jay Carter do for fun? 

(22:40) Jay Carter
My wife and I are both gourmands, as it, as it were. We're so interested in cuisine from across the world. So travel and food are, are really strong motivators. Um, but for me, My brain doesn't stop very often. And one of the things that relaxes me is, is thinking about music and art and culture and how those things really relate to each other. That being said, I certainly have my favorite trashy TV shows that I watch on television.

(23:12) Ron Klemm
Give me one! 

(23:13) Jay Carter
90 Day Fiancé and the whole franchise. It's just, you know, it's just, it's just what I, I, I almost, I'm, I'm flushing here on this side of the microphone to even have admitted it out loud, but it's, it's just one of the.

(23:25) Ron Klemm
Well, I could edit it out if I wanted to. 

(23:27) Jay Carter
Well, no, I think you should leave it in because I, I feel like the bandage is off now. Yeah. 

(23:32) Ron Klemm
Did you watch a Super Bowl? 

(23:34) Jay Carter
I did. Oh, of course. 

(23:35) Ron Klemm
How about those Chiefs?

(23:38) Jay Carter I, well, here's the thing is, you know, I didn't really give two figs about sports when I was in high school or even college. And I think it wasn't until. my family moved away from Kansas City for the first time for me to do graduate work, that I began to pay any attention to the Kansas City Royals.

I began to really care a little bit about the ball team. And then a few years ago, my family, we moved to the East coast for a while. And, uh, that was the year that the Chiefs won the Super Bowl. And we were so, yeah, the first one. And we were just so excited. And, you know, I've, I've finally come to, to realize that I, I really do enjoy the sense of civic pride that comes from living in a place like Kansas City, where there's a fabulous arts community. We, but we also have a sports community and we also have other things that we're, that we're doing and that we're growing. It's a, it's a vibrant place to live. And that sense of pride I've, I've learned it's okay to feel that for, for sports and for music that isn't my own and for culture that isn't my own.

(24:43) Ron Klemm
That's countertenor and Chiefs fan and TV critic, Jay Carter. I'm Ron Klemm and this is Bach Talk. 

(24:51) Scott MacDonald
And from football back to Bach. Here's part of the poignant aria from the St. John Passion. Es ist vollbracht, or it is finished. Countertenor Jay Carter, accompanied by The Bach Society Orchestra and conducted by music director Dennis Sparger.Jay Carter singing Es ist wohlbracht from the St. John Passion. This performance took place in spring 2023, and like all of our concert excerpts today, it was captured by the Bach Society's Grammy Award-winning recording engineer, Paul Henrich.

Guests of the Bach Society stay at the Hilton St. Louis Frontenac Hotel, featuring Old World charm at the intersection of comfort and convenience.

Subscribe to Bach Talk wherever you get your podcasts. You can learn more about the podcast or about the Bach Society at www.bachsociety.org Bach Talk is produced by Ron Klemm. Marketing and technical assistance are provided by Andie Murphy and Charissa Marciniak of The Right Relations. Until next time, I'm Scott MacDonald.

Bach Talk is a registered trademark of The Bach Society of Saint Louis.

About Episode 11

Sandra Geary might not crave the limelight, but her role as accompanist is critical to The Bach Society of Saint Louis. Originally from Cork, Ireland, she came to St. Louis to study at the Saint Louis Conservatory of Music and has been here ever since. Host Ron Klemm and Music Director and Conductor A. Dennis Sparger sat down with Sandra to hear all about her passion for music, her role as an educator and how she started playing piano. Plus, she shares some of her favorite memories from the last 30 years performing with The Bach Society of Saint Louis.

Transcription

(00:00) Ron Klemm
This is Bach Talk.

A celebrated music educator once wrote, "True musicianship is found not only in the mastery of one's instrument, but in the ability to collaborate, to inspire, and to elevate the artistry of those around you."Nowhere is that mastery and collaborative spirit more evident than in the one who takes on the role of choral accompanist.

(00:47) Sandra Geary
I feel like I'm a helper. I don't need to have the limelight. I need to support whoever I'm playing for, whether it be a singer or, um, an instrumentalist, or even a chorus.

(01:08) Ron Klemm
Such a person is rare indeed. There are many great pianists after all, but there are far fewer great accompanists. The Bach Society of Saint Louis enjoys one of the finest and has for a long time. Her name is Sandra Geary. She has been the accompanist for The Bach Society for more than 30 years. In addition, she's a member of the piano faculty at Washington University, accompanies their vocal ensembles, as well as Webster University's Opera Studio.

She's a much sought after vocal coach and regularly accompanies recitals, auditions, and competitions in the St. Louis area. You are about to meet Sandra. And since she, like so many of the best accompanists, is not always comfortable in the spotlights, we've dimmed them down just a little.

(02:05) Sandra Geary
I don't need the glory. I'm there to support as much as I can and be musical and inspire them to be more musical by how I play. 

(02:13) Ron Klemm
Hello, I'm Ron Klemm. Welcome to Bach Talk. Music director and conductor A. Dennis Sparger joined our conversation prior to a rehearsal not too long ago. And now, with the help of editor Scott MacDonald, settle back and get ready to be charmed and delighted with Bach Society accompanist, Sandra Geary. You've been the accompanist for The Bach Society of Saint Louis since?

(02:48) Sandra Geary
1993, January. 

(02:51) Ron Klemm
And counting. 

(02:52) Sandra Geary
And counting. 

(02:53) Ron Klemm
Tell us about the circumstances surrounding your coming to The Bach Society. 

(02:58) Sandra Geary
I played for an audition, and Dennis was looking for an accompanist at the time, and I had already said that I would play for ten weeks for another group in town. And then he contacted me and said the job is yours if you'd like it.

So of course I jumped at the chance and I've been happy ever since. I've learned so much by just watching. It has helped my own teaching a lot, I find, just playing Bach. And learning about how to breathe as singers. I work a lot with singers anyway. So that's really inspired my teaching. 

(03:32) Ron Klemm
Well, that's about four podcast episodes that you've already brought up.

So you're coming back, no questions asked. 

(03:38) A. Dennis Sparger
And you've certainly made us more than happy

(03:40) Sandra Geary
Oh, thank you. 

(03:41) Ron Klemm
Is that how you remember it? 

(03:42) A. Dennis Sparger
Oh, yes. 

(03:43) Ron Klemm
Or is she fudging it? 

(03:44) A. Dennis Sparger
No, she just played an audition and just did a tremendous job.

(03:49) Ron Klemm
By this point, people have already noticed and said, Wait a minute, she's not from Missouri.

(03:57) Sandra Geary
I've lived here since 1985, believe it or not. 

(04:00) Ron Klemm
And you came from? 

(04:01) Sandra Geary
Uh, Cork, Ireland. Yeah, on a scholarship to the Saint Louis Conservatory of Music. Uh, to a wonderful teacher that I met in Dublin. a year before, uh, Joseph Kalkstein, who's since passed away, unfortunately. Um, and so I came over and followed him and did my degree at the Saint Louis conservatory. 

(04:21) A. Dennis Sparger
Could you say a few words about what really caught you as a child to get involved with music, with, with piano? Were you told that you're going to do this or did you just go, go to it yourself? 

(04:36) Sandra Geary
We had an old piano in our home. Um, my grandfather lived with us. Um, my grandad played a little bit.

And so from the age of three, she would take my fingers and run them over the piano. And pick out some Irish tunes mostly. The Rakes of Mallow is one of them. Um, my grandfather used to sing a little bit. So I had a good ear. And so I went to school, uh, I was five and a half, and when I was almost six, um, they had a piano in our classroom, and when the nun left one day, I started playing.

And one of the students told on me, Sister, Sandra Geary was playing the piano.

(05:16) Ron Klemm
Which was a no no. 

(05:17) Sandra Geary
Well, she thought so, the girl who told on me. But when the nun left the next time, she said, Sandra, can you just keep them quiet and just play something? So, then she recognized there was a talent there, and talked to Mum.

And, uh, Mum said, okay, let's give her lessons. So I started working with an older lady in town. 

(05:38) Ron Klemm
At what age?

(05:38) Sandra Geary
Uh, I was six. Then when I was eight, she, this wonderful teacher that I probably owe a lot to, told mom, I can't keep up with her. She's reading ahead. I just, she needs to go to another teacher, which I really owe a lot to.

So I was lucky that a lady came to town because of her husband's job, and she was a concert pianist she came from Dublin, and I did an audition for her, and she took me on, and then I was with her for about three years. And then her husband was moved back to Dublin, and then she got me in with the Cork School of Music, where I had a wonderful teacher for many years, and then I had two teachers prior to coming here.

(06:23) Ron Klemm
I'm curious about life in Cork. 

(06:26) Sandra Geary
Cork, hmm. I had a wonderful childhood. Parents bought me a piano when I was eight. Uh, because the old piano was just not working. Uh, they encouraged me. They were not musically inclined at all. But always supported what I wanted to do. Basically, I always knew I wanted to do music.

And they supported that. 

(06:50) A. Dennis Sparger
So from the time almost that you were eight or nine?

(06:53) Sandra Geary
I think I knew I always wanted to do this. 

(06:54) A. Dennis Sparger
You knew this was going to be it. 

(06:55) Sandra Geary
I mean, I had no problem. I was always practicing. And when other kids were out playing, I was like, I gotta do my practice first. So it was just, I think, just a gift.

(07:04) Ron Klemm
Well, it is a gift because, uh, 

(07:05) Sandra Geary
It is a gift. 

(07:06) Ron Klemm
Some of us would rather play ball first.

(07:07) Sandra Geary
Ha, ha, ha, ha. 

(07:10) Ron Klemm
Um, but I'm curious about your teachers and how they, uh, How they influenced you, beyond music, what gifts did they give to you? 

(07:21) Sandra Geary
Um, I would say my second teacher, uh, which was the lady from Dublin, um, taught me how to sing at the piano.

(07:30) Sandra Geary
Um, when I did go to her first day, um, my fingers were not curving. And so that was one of the hardest things I had to do. But I always remember sing on top of my music, sing. And I really didn't get it at first, but I think after a while listening to her, And that really inspired me. 

(07:48) Ron Klemm
Literally singing or figuratively singing as you're playing?

(07:54) Sandra Geary
Figuratively singing as I was playing. 

(07:55) A. Dennis Sparger
Yes. 

(07:56) Sandra Geary
Yeah. And then my next teacher told me in order to play Mozart well, you have to go to the operas. And I thought, okay, a 13, a three hour opera, all right. But now I get it. Yeah. Not at the time, but now it does.

(09:15) Ron Klemm
Tell me about your role. I know you have a job description, but I'll bet mind reader is not in there. 

(09:22) Sandra Geary
I try my best I think I've worked with Dennis long enough, but I, I guess I need to go back a little bit. Um, when I was a student here at the Conservatory of Music in Saint Louis, um, in the 80s, I started working with a conductor, uh, Leona Greenlaw, actually, with the Young Singers Missouri.

And so that's where I got to, uh, to work with a conductor on a more regular basis. So I feel like when I did join The Bach Society that I had that. Yeah, my role as rehearsal pianist, I guess. It's, it's really fun for me. Um, I sight read really well, so sometimes I come into the rehearsal process and I get the music right there and then, and I do my best on the first rehearsal, and then I go home and practice for the next one.

But I feel like, yes, I do read Dennis's mind on occasion. Yeah, and where he wants to go back to, um, and that saves a lot of time, because Dennis is very time oriented, which is fabulous, we always get out on time, everything is to the minute, for the most part, um, and so I feel like I need to really concentrate for that two and a half hour rehearsal, or however long it is, um, To be right there when he needs me and to hear what needs to be helped at a particular time.

If the tenors are missing a note here or there, I'll bring that out a little bit more subtly without them even knowing maybe at times. Yeah, it's a really enjoyable thing. 

(10:53) A. Dennis Sparger
It's really quite a different job from being a concert pianist.

(10:57) Sandra Geary
Absolutely. And when I first came over here, I thought I wanted to do that.

But then during the process of my degree at the Conservatory, I got, as I call it, the accompanying bug. And I accompanied for probably most of the concert. instrumentalists. Uh, they already had a violin and string, um, rehearsal pianist and a voice rehearsal pianist so I basically played for everybody else.

(11:23) Ron Klemm
Obviously it requires a special skill or set of skills. 

(11:26) Sandra Geary
Yes. 

(11:27) Ron Klemm

But it also seems to me to also require a certain attitude. 

(11:31) Sandra Geary

Yes, it does. 

(11:32) Ron Klemm
How so? 

(11:33) Sandra Geary
I feel like I am a helper. It's a responsible job. I don't need to have the limelight. I need to support whoever I'm playing for, whether it be a singer or an instrumentalist, even a chorus.

(11:50) Sandra Geary
I don't need the glory. I'm there to support as much as I can and be musical and inspire them to be more musical by how I play. 

(12:00) A. Dennis Sparger
And certainly I could see that, you know, so many times, especially when you're accompanying the Young Artists Showcase, as I saw just recently, uh, how you take on, you know, the entire orchestral fabric and condense it, you know, into your hands to support them so well. And, you know, all of a sudden I can hear the viola part coming through the piano, or I hear the bass part, or I hear a more delicate passage that's coming through. And so you're not just playing the notes, you're playing really the music.

(12:31) Sandra Geary
I'm singing along with them. 

(12:32) A. Dennis Sparger
Yes. Yeah.

(12:34) Sandra Geary
Yeah, and I, I try to instill that in my students that I teach at Wash U also. Um, it's not about the notes. It's about making music, having something to say. Which is more important. They often say, Oh, what if I make a mistake? Doesn't matter. Make music. 

(12:50) A. Dennis Sparger
We all make mistakes. 

(12:51) Sandra Geary
Yeah, and that's what I tell them.

(12:52) Ron Klemm
Yes, we do. Yes. At what point did you say, you know what, I'd rather be a an accompanist than a concert pianist? And then later about teaching, when did you say? Oh, I should teach this. 

(13:06) Sandra Geary
I would say probably at the Conservatory. I did a little bit of, um, Suzuki book, um, playing for accompanying uh, back home in Ireland during the summertime just for extra money.

(13:17) Sandra Geary
And that was basically the only jobs I ever had during the summer. But I would say I got the accompanying bug during the conservatory years when I did chamber music and accompanying there. And then I probably would have decided when I was in my early twenties. That I wanted to do accompanying other than concert pianist work.

(13:34) Sandra Geary
I read really well. So my memory and my memorization was a little slower. So that was a little bit more cumbersome. Although I love playing solo back then, I prefer to do accompanying now. 

(13:47) A. Dennis Sparger
And then you were inspired to come to St. Louis. 

(13:50) Sandra Geary
By a masterclass that I did in Dublin. Um, I did masterclasses every year from the age of 13.

Um, with various, uh, wonderful concert pianists who came from all over. Um, and Joseph Kalikstein happened to be, uh, Trinity College. And I, I did a two week, uh, Um, class with him. And at the time, I had just won a two year scholarship to London, and I asked his opinion who I should study with, and he said, Well, if you ever consider coming to the States, I teach at Juilliard, and I teach in St. Louis. And I think you're young, and you're kind of sheltered, so maybe St. Louis would be a better fit. And there's only 120 students there, whereas Juilliard is a little cutthroat. So I was glad that I made the decision to come here. 

(14:35) Ron Klemm
Tell us more about Joseph Kalikstein, the man. 

(14:39) Sandra Geary
Wonderful, wonderful person. Um, big into Schumann. 

(14:43) Ron Klemm
Yeah. 

(14:43) Sandra Geary
A wonderful, uh, trio, Laredo Robinson trio. Um, he inspired me a lot to listen, really listen, and take chances. Um, very good technically. He always said that, um, in order to work on technique, find it within your piece. You don't have to do the Hanon exercises. It's all right there.

So that was, that was telling. And that helps with my teaching. No, he was wonderful. Yeah. Very encouraging, too. 

(15:11) Ron Klemm
Tell me about your students and about some of the things that you find more frequently that you have to, uh, correct? Or, or, or, and how do you approach them? 

(15:21) Sandra Geary
Um, hand positions are big. Um, Posture at the piano. I get, uh, crossed legs occasionally, and, uh, oh yeah, oh yeah, uh huh, yeah, but the flat, the flat fingers is the big thing. Really? Yeah, so I give them some exercise to do on a, a table, just curving your fingers, picking up one at a time, and then scales, obviously. 

(15:44) Ron Klemm
How do your students inspire you? 

(15:46) Sandra Geary
They make me think.

I have to think about what I do because I don't always have to think about how, Oh, how do I play that? Oh, okay. So I have to explain in a different way or even in, you know, just show them how to do it correctly. Uh, loose wrists is a big one because some people play very stiff. And so just to get people have the right 

(16:10) Ron Klemm
Fluidity.

(16:11) Sandra Geary
Yeah, exactly. 

(16:13) Ron Klemm
What lessons did you learn, uh, in your schooling, and the, that teachers taught you that you now recognize are the things you must pass on to your own students? 

(16:27) Sandra Geary
Mm, to breathe. 

(16:29) Ron Klemm
Breathe. 

(16:29) Sandra Geary
Mmhmm. Because as pianists, you know, you can get pianists and they can just go and go and go and go. And I think part of my accompanying too helps that.

(16:38) Sandra Geary
You just have to breathe. Let the music breathe. 

(16:41) A. Dennis Sparger
Yeah. 

(16:41) Sandra Geary
Listen. Yeah. Listen. Silences are just as important as the music. And sing, obviously. So a lot to do with voice and speech. That's probably why my life has come 360. I'm working with a lot of singers now. 

(16:57) A. Dennis Sparger
Yes, do you do any singing yourself? 

(16:59) Sandra Geary
I don't, I do in lessons though.

(17:01) A. Dennis Sparger
In lessons?

(17:01) Sandra Geary
Yes, I do. Just to, it just kind of happens.

(17:05) A. Dennis Sparger
I'll have to take a lesson or two.

(17:06) Ron Klemm
To be a fly on the wall.

(17:08) Sandra Geary
Yeah, it's funny. I just kind of, you know, just to inspire the students sometimes. I just happened to let go and I'm like, okay, I do have a voice.

(18:26) Ron Klemm
We have had so many exciting moments with The Bach Society of Saint Louis since you've been with us in the 90s. What are some of the memories that you hold dear from some of our concerts or maybe even from some of our rehearsals. What are some of those moments that stand out for you? 

(18:44) Sandra Geary
Yeah, well, one of them is, and I love the piece so much, and I'm glad we got to do it twice, the Ubi Caritas.

I just love that because I think I find something new every time. Yeah. And I'm, I mean, it's all probably selfish of me because I get to play a lot on that and the chorus doesn't have to sing too much. 

(19:05) A. Dennis Sparger
And that came out of an improvisation. 

(19:07) Sandra Geary
It is! I know. It's a wonderful piece. And I, I mean, I love playing the Bach rep, but I don't get to play that in the orchestra.

So it's nice for me to sit out and just listen to what we've worked on in the rehearsal process. The Christmas concerts, I usually enjoy the Christmas concerts. 

(19:25) A. Dennis Sparger
Don't we all? 

(19:26) Sandra Geary
Yes. 

(19:26) A. Dennis Sparger
They're just lovely. 

(19:27) Sandra Geary
Favorite. Favorite.

(20:05) Ron Klemm
Let's, uh, kind of take a couple of, uh, moments to do some quick hits. 

(20:09) Sandra Geary
Okay. 

(20:11) Ron Klemm
A one or two word answer is fine. 

(20:12) Sandra Geary
Okay. 

(20:13) Ron Klemm
But we want to kind of, uh, draw you out a little bit and get some revelation from you. 

(20:17) Sandra Geary
Okay. 

(20:18) Ron Klemm
What are the greatest misconceptions that I have or anyone else has about Ireland? 

(20:25) Sandra Geary
Oh, wow. Good question. That it always rains? It does, but not all the time. It is very green, you probably know that already. People are very friendly. 

(20:37) Ron Klemm What do you miss the most from your homeland? 

(20:41) Sandra Geary
Uh, the sea. Big time. Yeah, this is so inland here. When I go home, I really enjoy just walking by the seashore because we live right by the sea.

Um, my harbor town actually has cruise ships come in from May through October every year. And so that's one of the things I miss, the scenery, basically. How often do you go back? I go home once a year, but since COVID, I've tried to get home at Christmas also. So I go for the whole summer. 

(21:10) Ron Klemm
And family still there?

(21:11) Sandra Geary
Yes, my mom's still there. And my brother is married with two. Kids who are now teenagers. Yes, growing up fast already. They're getting older. Yeah, and one of them takes piano lessons So I'm happy about that and I meet with them on FaceTime on Sundays and I go over whatever pieces She's working on just to kind of help.

That's fun for me. 

(21:31) Ron Klemm
What do you do to relax? 

(21:32) Sandra Geary
Watch sports. 

(21:33) Ron Klemm
Oh Are we gonna talk about hockey now? 

(21:38) Sandra Geary
Hockey, soccer, you name it, golf. 

(21:40) Ron Klemm
What's the Blues problem, really?

(21:42) Sandra Geary
I don't know. I wish I could put a finger on it. Yeah. I don't think it's a coach problem. 

(21:46) Ron Klemm
No, I don't think so either. We won't go into that. If you could communicate one thing from your experience with The Bach Society, what would it be?

(21:56) Sandra Geary
Friendship. 

(21:57) Ron Klemm
Really? 

(21:57) Sandra Geary
Yep. Making some wonderful friendships over the years. Just the community. Everybody is so appreciative, always. 

(22:04) A. Dennis Sparger
Just a wonderful group of people. 

(22:06) Sandra Geary
It is a wonderful group of people. 

(22:07) A. Dennis Sparger
So warm and inviting. 

(22:08) Sandra Geary
Totally. 

(22:09) A. Dennis Sparger
Many have commented on how, you know, when they come into the group as a new person, how quickly they're accepted.

(22:15) Sandra Geary
Absolutely. 

(22:16) A. Dennis Sparger
Become one of the whole. 

(22:18) Sandra Geary
Exactly, and over the years made some wonderful friends, gone to games with them, hockey games, etc. 

(22:23) Ron Klemm
Are you recognized in an audience as to the fact that you're with The Bach Society, or do you kind of go incognito? 

(22:31) Sandra Geary
Oh yeah, I'm recognized. Yeah, in fact, at a concert last night, there were a lot of people from, there were some Bach people there, I think, but some Webster people, and yeah, I was definitely recognized.

Just being out there, I think, accompanying, not just for The Bach Society, but I know people see me, but I don't always see who they are, and they'll come up to me and say, Oh, we saw you at so and so. But it's been a busy April so far. I'm thankful, but it has been busy. 

(22:57) A. Dennis Sparger
I was just curious, how many hours a day do you work?

(23:00) Sandra Geary
Well, I started at 10:30 this morning and I stopped at 5:30. Yeah, so every day is a little different. And that's what I love about my job, it's very varied. 

(23:10) A Dennis Sparger.
Seems like you're always coming and going from one rehearsal or lesson to another. 

(23:15) Ron Klemm
Thank you. 

(23:16) Sandra Geary
You're welcome. 

(23:16) Ron Klemm
You've been a joy to be with.

(23:18) Sandra Geary
Thank you.

(23:18) Ron Klemm
As you always are. 

(23:19) Sandra Geary
Thank you.

(23:33) Ron Klemm
Musical portions today featured pianist Sandra Geary, some taken from concert performances by The Bach Society of Saint Louis. Others in a special recording session at Jazz Saint Louis. All selections were captured by The Bach Society's Grammy Award winning recording engineer, Paul Henrich.

The associate producer of Bach Talk is Scott MacDonald. Marketing and technical assistance provided by Andie Murphy. and Charissa Marciniak of The Right Relations. I'm Ron Klemm. Subscribe to Bach Talk wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more at bachsociety.org. Bach Talk is a registered trademark of The Bach Society of Saint Louis.

About Episode 10

In Episode 10 of Bach Talk, host Ron Klemm and Stephen chat through music, mentorship and teamwork. He shares his journey from growing up in Belleville, Illinois, to leading a professional choir and highlights the important role his family and mentors like A. Dennis Sparger have had on his career. Explore Stephen's passion for leading both a church choir and a professional ensemble, and learn how he brings depth to music through meaningful text.

Transcription

Ron Klemm (00:00)
This is Bach Talk.

None of us ever do great things, but we can do small things with great love, and together we can do something wonderful.

Mother Teresa's celebrated words ring true, and nowhere are they more validated than in the creation of great music

Teamwork, it's something we hear a lot about, in sports, in the business world, in many of life's collaborative endeavors. It's something that defines a great artistic ensemble too, a symphony orchestra, for example, or a dance troupe or a highly trained choir. The Bach Society of Saint Louis has thrived for more than 80 years under the direction of some magnificent leadership.

Current music director and conductor Dennis Sparger has defined the top role since the mid 80s. But it takes more than one person's efforts to be successful over the better part of a century. It takes a team.

I'm Ron Klemm. Welcome to Bach Talk. Today, we'll meet an important member of that team. We'll chat with assistant conductor Stephen Eros. We'll learn about that kid from Belleville, Illinois, and how he grew to play such a crucial role in the life of The Bach Society of Saint louis. Let's talk about something that I know is easy for you to talk about. Talk about your family.

Stephen Eros (02:27)
Well, my wife Jamie, we've been married for 10 years and knew each other for a few years before that and she has two sons who are now almost 19 and 17 And our children together are, um, going to be eight this summer and just turned six going on twenty six. And, uh, each one of them is a handful in their own right. And, um, and teaches us something about being better parents and people every day. 

Ron Klemm (02:57)
What's the family dynamic like? Who's the one who makes all the decisions? 

Stephen Eros (03:01)
Oh. 

Ron Klemm (03:02)
The six-year-old?

Stephen Eros (03:03)
Oh, it depends on the moment. Yeah, I just listened to David Gordon's episode that he did and when he described the Bach home, I'm like, okay, I don't feel so bad now.

Uh, you know, we don't have like 20 running around and like random people staying with us, but it's, it's pretty chaotic. Cause, um, she's a musician also. And, um, you know, neither of us work nine to five, five days a week. Um, you know, we're fortunate to have flexible schedules. Um, and sometimes that comes with a little lighter season, but when it's busy, it's busy. Um, and that leads me to my next door neighbors, which are my parents. 

Ron Klemm (03:44)
Really? 

Stephen Eros (03:45)
Yeah. They moved. 

Ron Klemm (03:46)
Oh, tell me about that dynamic. 

Stephen Eros (03:48)
Oh, it's great.

Ron Klemm (03:49)
Is it? 

Stephen Eros (03:49)
So, um, we live in our, in my grandmother's, um, home, which, which is where my mom grew up for, from like junior high on. And so we bought that house in 2017 and we're living there, it's, you know, under weird family circumstances for a few years before that.

Um, my parents lived five minutes away from us. So in the pandemic. actually like right at the beginning, um, my neighbor next to us who is 90 some years old, passed away before the pandemic. So that was good for her. 

Ron Klemm (04:23)
Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen Eros (04:24)
Um, and my parents bought the house for a steal and we did a lot of cosmetic stuff and yeah, so that's going on four years now that they live there. So it's neat. I mean, we have a little compound and actually, um, when Jamie's mom passed a few years ago, her dad moved in just like three minutes down the road from us. So if there's a family dinner, or I should say this, if there's a time where we sit down for dinner at a table, Usually those three parents are there with us and all the kids.

And so, um, my family's amazing. 

Ron Klemm (05:00)
If you voted as a block, you could sway an election. Probably. 

Stephen Eros (05:05)
She is an alderman for the city of Belleville. That's right. 

Ron Klemm (05:08)
Well, we could, this could take a dramatic turn at this point. 

Stephen Eros (05:11)
Let's stay the course. 

Ron Klemm (05:14)
Well, tell me about then growing up. What was life like? Where did you grow up? And, and, uh, what were the circumstances and how did you first get involved with music? Let's say.

Stephen Eros (05:24)
Oh my gosh, I grew up in Belleville. I'm actually, I'm a lifelong Belleville resident. I've lived there all through my college years. I was a commuter student. Um, and like I said, my parents grew up or I grew up in my parents home five minutes away from where I currently live.

Um, I went to my grandmother's house where I now live after school. Um, and school was at St. Mary's, which is just like two or three blocks away from that house. And, um, so I, I would go to my grandmother's house every day after school. Um, both grandmothers and the, the (06:00) one whose house I live in now has a Wurlitzer piano.

And it was, it was the family piano in Chester, Illinois. It's a Wurlitzer, um, uh, spinet. And I grew up playing that by ear and all of my mom's siblings Siblings one through five took piano lessons from the piano teacher in Chester, because there's only one of everything in Chester. Um, and when the piano teacher died, My mom's sister and her did not get piano lessons and my grandmother never lived that down.

So, uh, but I benefited from the piano because I would go there after school, preschool and kindergarten and just plunk out things by ear. Um, you know, things that I heard at choir rehearsal when I went with my parents and songs that I would hear in church and yeah. 

Ron Klemm (06:49)
What, so what prompted it? What, what drew you like a magnet to that keyboard?

Stephen Eros (06:56)
My parents, whether they knew it or not, because, um, like I said, I, I was an only, I am an only child. And so I guess I was just carted everywhere. Um, and so I would go to choir rehearsal. Um, I mean, then of course be in the choir loft on Sunday mornings and yeah. And, and, um, I, at that age, that's, I guess what drew me in.

Um, my dad is, um, The charter member of the Masterworks Chorale founded by our own Dennis Sparger and, um, that was a big part of his life. Although it was not a part of my life until I was a little older than the age that I'm talking about now. Um, so yeah, music is just, it's, it's in the blood. 

Ron Klemm (07:42)
Move forward from there. Where, where, when did it become serious stuff for you? 

Stephen Eros (07:49)
I guess I'm lucky to, so I, I don't know. Um, I, I figured out at some point in high school, you know, I, I thought about, Oh, it'd be neat to be, um, You name it the career that makes money, you know But it's just like not practical and then it just sort of settled on music but I was never and I'm very fortunate to have never had the experience of being under pressure from my parents to Be an overachiever And so I was never I would say I don't know when it got serious And maybe that's a good thing.

Ron Klemm (08:21)
I think so. 

Stephen Eros (08:22)
It was always fun and I Uh, you know, through, through grade school and junior high, you know, I was just involved in band. I was in the chorus for a little bit. Uh, you know, we did some, some musicals and then I went into high school and we had a very good high school program at Belville West, um, by, ran by Tom Berkner, who's also a student of Dennis.

And he, Tom Berkner just opened up so many new doors for me. Um, and I had so many great experiences in high school, but again, it was never, uh, This very competitive What I'm going to call an unhealthy competitive culture in high school. 

Ron Klemm (08:59)
It can be. 

Stephen Eros (09:01)
And I see it a lot in a lot of our high schools now. And someone graduates after four years of that, and they're totally turned off by music.

They have no interest in continuing. So I was fortunate that it's always been that way. Fun.

Ron Klemm (09:17)
So tell me about the other mentors. All roads seem to lead to Dennis, but let's talk about the other mentors, uh, in your life and who comes to mind immediately and jumps out as someone who really, really, really Helped you or changed your path or your your approach or your your focus 

Stephen Eros (09:36)
Well so far I've mentioned Dennis, Tom Berkner, my parents. The main one that we haven't gotten to is in college. So again, because this never really was like serious cutthroat stuff.

It's like, well, I guess I'll go to college for music. What am I doing? Um, you know, I had taken organ lessons. Um, and so I signed up for an organ performance degree, (10:00) not really knowing what that meant or what, where it could lead. Um, and then I got into college as a band kid. I was a band kid all through high school.

Ron Klemm (10:09)
What'd you play? 

Stephen Eros (10:10)
Trumpet. And, um, my grade school band director was Vicky Smolik, who was our, um, recently deceased, uh, local union president. And she had a lot to do with, with where I am now. And was with me since fourth grade, you know, through, you know, recent years. Um, so I signed up for an organ performance degree and then choir was part of my degree because that's that's how Webster's had it set up 

Ron Klemm (10:42)
Webster University in St. Louis. Yep. 

Stephen Eros (10:44)
So all of a sudden I was in choir. I'm like, oh, this is pretty cool And then My sophomore year, um, Kathy Bowers retired from Webster and we got a new director, Trent Patterson, who is there now. And Trent really steered me in the direction of, of being a choral director.

Um, because I had opportunities in my undergraduate degree that not many people are afforded. Um, and that's one of the reasons that I, I love my time at Webster because, um, it's a good school, but it's, again, it's not cutthroat. So a lowly undergrad organ performance major, you know, can start leading choir sectionals and taking rehearsal if someone's sick or actually Trent's son just had a birthday.

I remember, um, when Benjamin was born, I had rehearsals that day. So, um, it was at Webster that I was really put on the path to be a choral conductor. And so I, I finished up my organ performance degree and oh, by the way, Pat Partridge, my organ professor, um, I, I can't say enough about him again, just, um, a true gentleman.

Again, not cutthroat, um, and probably should have been a little harder on me when I needed it. Uh, looking back, um, but yeah, so Pat was, Pat was again, instrumental in my, my college years. Um, yeah. So I finished my organ degree in 2013 and it was around that time actually that I sang with The Bach Society Chorus for the Rachmaninoff It was the Divine Liturgy, I think we did, and, uh, Dennis had kind of emailed me out of the blue because he was looking for, you know, more male voices to fill out the section. And then after that, I got an invitation from him to be his assistant with The Bach Society. 

Ron Klemm (12:54)
Um, and, and how. How did that come about and what was your reaction when you first got that invitation? 

Stephen Eros (13:04)
Um, total shock. You know, cause again, Dennis and I have known each other since, you know, I was, whatever, negative 20 years old.

Um, but he's known me since birth and, and I, you know, Masterworks Chorale concerts and, um, Um, Yeah. So I guess we just sort of kept touch and then, and then, um, like, you know, he's sort of followed my college years, I guess. And then again, I don't really know what prompted the invitation to sing the Rachmaninoff, but then here I was, I, and I got the invitation to be the assistant and I look back and what's so special for me now, and I'm trying to pass on to other young people is how I've looked back and seen. how many people in my life have given me a chance. And that's not blind. Um, it takes a lot of, of thought and discretion on the part of whoever's asking. Um, but Dennis is one of those people. Um, Trent is one of those people, Tom Berkner for sure. Um, Hey, I think you would be good at this. Why don't you give it a try?

And I realize now just. Those were the best experiences and have been the best experiences and have pushed me the farthest in this job at being a musician. So that's, I don't, that's, that's how it came about. I mean, it was not, we had not talked about it. It was not really presented or an option or, and of course it started off very, minimal, which again, smart on his part, he, um, he knew that I was going into a graduate degree in choral conducting at, you know, after my great experience as an undergrad, I wanted to continue through and do two more years focusing on, on choral music.

So that was really like a sort of a hand in hand thing, the Bach society and Webster working together in this next part of my, my journey. Yeah. 

Ron Klemm (15:11)
That's Stephen Eros Assistant Conductor of The Bach Society of Saint Louis. I'm Ron Klemm, and this is Bach Talk.

Ron Klemm (15:49)
What is the role of the Assistant Conductor of the Bach Society of St. Louis as you see it? Don't, don't give me a job description. I'm not interested. What, what, what is your role as our Assistant Conductor? 

Stephen Eros (16:02)
And other duties as a No. Um. That's a good question, because, as I mentioned, it started off very cautiously, I'll say, um, I will never forget getting an email from Dennis.

Oh, and you'll be prepared to conduct this piece on Monday at rehearsal, right? And the answer is always yes. 

Ron Klemm (16:25)
Regardless of what the truth is. 

Stephen Eros (16:27)
I, yeah, yes, I will be prepared. Um, so yeah, I mean, it started off again, very small and with. Conducting opportunities that were appropriate to my skill level at that time.

And then it really grew. Um, and I don't know, I couldn't give you a timeline, but you know, there was a point that, you know, basically at every concert, excluding the major Bach work concert, I was conducting one to four pieces, um, and a variety of pieces. And then all of a sudden, um, I, you know, I get, I got to choose.

Ssome of those, or I, you know, like, okay, choose five or, you know, choose three from these five or whatever. And then it became, oh, send me some ideas of something you'd like to conduct. So, um, it's just, it's really evolved over the past now, um, almost, no, 11 years. Um, And then in the last couple of years, like really, since we've like fired up since COVID, I would say, um, I've been involved in more meetings and behind the scenes stuff and planning and special projects.

Ron Klemm (17:40)
Tell me about, um, I'm trying, I always try to tie things together for better, for worse, but tell me about your organist background and how you see that helping you in this role. In this role with the Bach Society. 

Stephen Eros (17:56)
Um, I'll expand even further in college. I realized because again, I'm, I'm a band kid. Uh, who plays piano and I'm doing an organ performance degree.

And in high school, I got really interested in jazz because that was Tom Berkner's I would, I would say his passion, um, is, is jazz music. And so I was in the top jazz band. I got a lot of great opportunities there. And then, so I have all of these different pieces I'm trying to put together. And I was in the pit orchestra for the spring musical, and that was amazing.

So I got really into musical theater and trying to figure out like, what do I do with all this? And I realized that, I am getting, like I'm taking pieces of everything and applying it in different parts of my life. There are skills as a musical theater pianist that I use as whatever, a choral conductor or an organist and vice versa.

Stephen Eros (18:47)
Um, I mean specifically when you're playing the organ you are focused on so many things. Um, two feet, two hands, um, You name it, like a minimum of three keyboards, 

Ron Klemm (19:04)
Right? But also tempo and leadership of singing and so on, 

Stephen Eros (19:09)
Right? You're, you're leading, you know, 350 people behind you, 

Ron Klemm (19:13)
Right? 

Stephen Eros (19:13)
You're leading the choir in front of you.

Stephen Eros (19:15)
You're conducting them as needed. And as a choral conductor who plays the organ, you have trained your choir to watch for the right things because you are not in front of them at all times. With every beat and every gesture But they know when the hand pops up they better be watching 

Ron Klemm (19:34)
Or the eyebrows or whatever it 

Stephen Eros (19:36)
Exactly or the head Yeah, you know, I'll joke in rehearsal like, you know, whoever doesn't watch gets to pay my chiropractor bill And so I I've learned a lot about I guess efficiency in in conducting from from being an organist conducting a choir at that time, because, you know, maybe the left hand is all you have at that moment.

Stephen Eros (19:58)
Maybe your head, your head is all you have at that moment. Uh, maybe your facial expressions are all you have at that moment. And they just, they know to watch. So. 

Ron Klemm (20:08)
Let's dig a little deeper into the whole subject of church music. And, um, about, well, let's start with you and your particular, uh, work. And I'm, I'm a Protestant, so you're going to have to educate me, but what is the scope of, of what you do at, uh, and the church is again?

Stephen Eros (20:27)
Saint Clare of Assisi.

Ron Klemm (20:28)
In O'Fallon, Illinois. Um, so tell us what your responsibilities are there. 

Stephen Eros (20:35)
Catholic parishes are very different than Protestant churches, mostly in we are understaffed. So I am a, I'm liturgy and music, which means, um, a lot of administration work that I've learned how to do in the last, um, almost 10 years of that position.

Stephen Eros (20:55)
Um, and now it's sort of second nature, which is great because, um, I would like to focus on music, um, and really making things happen. Um, so I'm in charge of all of our liturgical ministries, which is basically anyone who is performing a task within the liturgy, um, you know, a minister of communion and usher, um, those who proclaim the scriptures, you name it.

Stephen Eros (21:19)
If they're doing it at mass, ultimately I'm responsible for them. The scheduling, the training, and we have about 475 people on our roster at St. Clair, and it is a very dynamic, engaged community. And again, just working with people is, I've realized how much I love working with people. Because they make it happen and my job is to empower them and that's it.

Stephen Eros (21:45)
Um, so yeah. And then we have, we have an adult choir of about 45 members. We have, um, yeah, very, very fortunate I should say, because Catholic, Protestant, whatever, um, that's uncommon now. 

Ron Klemm (22:02)
No, that's right. 

Stephen Eros (22:04)
And, and it was about 20 to 25 people. When I got there. And what I would consider standard choral rep, what you probably would as well, um, was nowhere to be seen.

Stephen Eros (22:15)
So I built numbers, I built repertoire, I've built skill and they're pretty darn good. And they're a lot of fun too. Uh, we don't have any paid section leaders. It is all volunteer. We have a handful of people who have really strong musical backgrounds. We have a couple of people with music degrees and We're just so fortunate to have what we have.

Stephen Eros (22:42)
I've got a children's choir, um, 1st through 4th grade, um, and then 5th through 8th grade. Combined number is about 40. Um, again, that's nearly doubled. From, well, first of all, from one choir to two choirs and then the number total has doubled. Um, it's an extracurricular choir. Um, so it meets once, once a week and I'm 30 minutes with the little folks and in an hour with the big folks and the big folks are my biggest challenge, actually.

Ron Klemm (23:10)
Why am I not surprised? 

Stephen Eros (23:12)
And so again, just building skill and repertoire over the last several years and working with kids. That was my, this is my first job working with kids. You talk about a learning curve. Cause I did, I did not do any education training. I thought I wanted to, and I'm like, Oh, that's too many classes.

Um, so I stuck with my performance degree. Uh, but just like sort of treating them as professionals gets you pretty far. Yeah. Um, and just like being clear with your expectations, that gets you pretty far 

Ron Klemm (23:42)
And demonstrating they'll soak it up. 

Stephen Eros (23:44)
Oh yeah. They, they can, they can learn anything you can teach them.

Whether it's English or Latin or Gregorian chant or Mozart or Bach. 

Ron Klemm (23:56)
Isn't that something?

Stephen Eros (23:57)
I mean, it's just, it's amazing. It is. You've got to figure out (24:00) and respond in the moment a lot of times. Oh, they're not, I had this great plan, but it's not working. How can I pivot? 

Ron Klemm (24:07)
Yeah. 

Stephen Eros (24:07)
Um, So, yeah, that's a brief scope and then I'm, I'm the organist. I have no assistant. So yeah. 

Ron Klemm (24:16)
So let's talk, talk about then coming to the Bach Society and what you have to do when dealing with professionals. When you make that transition from your volunteer, uh, church musicians to, uh, a highly, uh, skilled choir like ours, what switches do you have to flip and what stay on?

Ron Klemm (24:44)
What, what, what is the same? What is different? How do you make those kinds of adjustments? 

Stephen Eros (24:50)
It's so interesting because, um, that was, that was my biggest learning curve coming to the Bach Society. As you can imagine, because the first time I conducted them, I'm like, oh, that sounds great. Let's go on. You know, it's like, what do I say?

Uh, you know, I just, uh, finished my college degree. I really have not a lot of qualifications to do this. And so it's intimidating. Um, and as a new member too, I mean, like, I don't know these people and I'm going to tell them like, Oh, you guys need to work on that. No. Um, so again, that is, that's come with time and training my ears.

Ron Klemm (25:25)
And, mutual respect. 

Stephen Eros (25:28)
Oh, for sure. That's any choir, whether I'm working with the first through fourth graders or the Bach society, there has to be mutual respect. There has to be a sense of ensemble and team, and we are all in this. Um, you know, for a purpose. So, yeah, I mean, obviously there, I can use my formal musical training and all, you know, the terminology and just more directly with, with professional singers, um, and then with volunteer singers, you can teach them those things that, you know, it might take them a while to get it, uh, or to remember what it is in that moment.

Um, but then you also have to teach them concepts differently. Uh, then you, you can't just like say, do this, uh, you might have to give an example. You might have to do more, more vocal modeling, which is something that I was encouraged to do in my choral training. Um, because all of a sudden they hear it like, Oh, that makes sense. Um, and so, yeah, explaining through modeling versus vocal training. 

Ron Klemm (26:35)
That's Stephen Eros, Assistant Conductor of The Bach Society of Saint Louis. I'm Ron Klemm and this is Bach Talk.

Ron Klemm (27:13)
I want to talk about music in general. In, um, a different context. I want to talk about it, uh, as it relates to text. Since you're involved with church music, we're also dealing here with The Bach Society with music that is so often written by some of the greatest church musicians in history. When you approach this music, how much does the text play into it?

Stephen Eros (27:43)
Oh, uh, text always plays into it. And, and, um, if we're talking sacred music, liturgical context is, is huge for me, um, because like my choir at church or our repertoire lists, you know, we've, with everything combined, probably close to 300 pieces a year we sing, and it's all based on context. Two anthems a week, a communion antiphon, you know, a choral gospel acclamation verse, hymn settings.

I mean, so all of those things are, it's not like my favorite things. Um, and, uh, and educating others on how I do that job is important because I am the servant of whatever is put in front of me as far as the lectionary, um, the church's liturgy goes in this, the season, um, the Sunday in that particular season.

So context is huge for me. And so I'm always looking at what is, what does this text mean? What part of scripture is it coming from? What context did For instance, we're preparing the motets, Bach's six motets now. And, um, he composed many of them for funerals. And some of those, you know, perhaps is very obvious, but then some of them are very joyous.

Ron Klemm (28:58)
Absolutely. 

Stephen Eros (28:59)
But then you go back to that original context of this was composed for a funeral. And that informs, I think a lot of what, what we're doing. Um, so yeah, looking at sources and also what the composer's intent was. is always very important for me. 

Ron Klemm (29:19)
Talk to me about the concept of music as comfort, and how music can penetrate where words alone cannot.

Stephen Eros (29:32)
I'm going to go to a very like basic Catholic liturgical principle, and that is that music elevates words. Um, you don't see this everywhere. In fact, most places you probably don't, um, but what we call the dialogues, anytime the priest, um, gives, you know, uh, an invitation to the people, and then they respond like the Lord be with you and with your spirit would be the most recognizable perhaps, um, for those dialogues to be sung or for what we call the presidential prayers. That the priest praise and the people respond, amen, for those to be sung is elevating that text to a higher place. And I remember when my son was, um, very young, perhaps maybe three years old and he's like all over the pew, you know, I'm over here and he's over with mom and that's already tough. That's a different episode. 

Ron Klemm (30:29)
Yes. 

Stephen Eros (30:29)
But he's doing his thing and then all of a sudden Father Jim starts he chants Let us pray and the server comes over with the Roman Missal the red book and presents it and Samuel's attention was immediately on father Jim at that moment.

Ron Klemm (30:43)
Really?

Stephen Eros (30:43)
And that that told me that this is important. And even the youngest people know that when they hear something being sung, that it's not every day, it's not an everyday thing. And so music elevates words and that I, there are, I can probably list a handful of pieces or moments in pieces that I will never be able to sing in concerts because the emotion takes over.

And I don't know if that's something you can really explain. And everyone has their pieces and their moments, but music just does that, great music touches the soul. 

Ron Klemm (31:30)
From the sublime to this. What do you do to relax? You're, you're done. You've done a a whole bunch of stuff and finally have a day off. What are you going to do? 

Stephen Eros (31:42) 
A day off. I don't know.

Ron Klemm (31:44)
When, when did you have a day off last? 

Stephen Eros (31:47)
Oh, it's, Oh, maybe not a day, maybe time. 

Ron Klemm (31:51)
Okay. Just a little time. 

Stephen Eros (31:52)
Um, we had a gathering at our house yesterday afternoon for Jamie's birthday. Had some friends over. Um, Friday is my day off. And because again, Jamie works a non traditional schedule. She's also off. So Friday is our day to hang out.

I like to garden. So actually I was, I was gardening a little bit yesterday. Um, I like doing yard work. It's therapeutic. So yeah, because music is such a big part of my life. It's not necessarily. I don't know. It's like, it's a hobby too, but to get away from it. 

Ron Klemm (32:23)
So when you want to relax, what music do you listen to? What kind of music? Something other than Bach? 

Stephen Eros (32:31)
No, I wouldn't say I have, well, maybe the most obscure would be like jazz. You know, I'm not like, Oh, I love to listen to heavy metal. No, I don't have any like surprises like that, but I do love jazz music and it's not something that I get to perform a lot. Um, so I'll listen to that.

I find that, um, if it's So like vocal or choral music is too distracting for me to listen to for like relaxing because my my brain turns on but like listen to like Bill Evans or or like Keith Jarrett, yeah 

Ron Klemm (33:04)
Good stuff.

Musical portions today featured selections from concert performances by The Bach Society of Saint louis, conducted by assistant conductor Stephen Eros. We also heard organist Stephen Eros from a recital in Belleville, Illinois's historic St. Peter Cathedral in March of 2022.

The associate producer of Bach Talk is Scott McDonald. Marketing and technical assistance provided by Andie Murphy and Charissa Marciniak of The Right Relations. Subscribe to Bach Talk wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more at bachsociety. org.

Bach Talk is a registered trademark of The Bach Society of Saint Louis. I'm Ron Klemm.

About Episode 9

A professor, musician and concertmaster all in one! Violinist Lenora-Marya Anop joins host Ron Klemm and Maestro A. Dennis Sparger to discuss the challenges and rewards of interpreting Bach's music and more. She shares the story of her musical journey, from her start with Suzuki lessons at age three to her most recent triumph at Carnegie Hall. In her role as Concertmaster with The Bach Society Orchestra for nearly 25 years, her passion for Bach's music continues to shine, and her joyful, collaborative spirit continues to bring musical magic to the stage.

About Episode 8

Explore the intriguing world of Johann Sebastian Bach with this captivating Bach Talk episode featuring tenor, author, historian, and Bach expert David Gordon. Join host Ron Klemm as they uncover fascinating details about Bach's daily life in Leipzig, Germany during the 18th century. Gordon challenges misconceptions about Bach as a stern figure, highlighting his sense of humor, love of life and the importance of his family. Don’t miss the opportunity to gain a unique perspective on Bach's life and times.

Transcription

Ron Klemm (00:00)
This is Bach Talk.

Ron Klemm (00:11)
No, this is not Bach. 

David Gordon (00:15)
Down by the Salley Garden My love and I did meet. 

Ron Klemm (00:26)
But there is a connection. 

David Gordon (00:28)
She walked the Salley Gardens with little snow-white feet. 

Ron Klemm (00:40)
I'll explain in a moment. 

David Gordon (00:42)
She bid me take life easy as the leaves grow on the trees. 

Ron Klemm (00:54)
For now, let's just enjoy.

Ron Klemm (01:08)
He's a Bach specialist who sometimes finds himself outside the box.

Ron Klemm (02:10)
The iridescent voice of tenor, David Gordon, Outside the Box was the title of his most recent concert in Carmel, California. That was a track from that concert. The traditional folk song with words from the great Irish poet, William Butler Yeats. Hello, I'm Ron Klemm. Welcome to Bach Talk. By his own admission, David Gordon has always led parallel musical lives.

For decades, he's been a distinguished classical music tenor soloist, who's made his mark with great opera companies and symphony orchestras around the globe. Here's some mind-boggling trivia. David made his United States concert debut at Powell Symphony Hall in 1972 with The Bach Society of Saint Louis.

These days, David no longer sings on the classical stage, but is still, as he says, quite securely strapped to his guitar. Drawing on a lifetime of concerts and centuries of music, David creates unique programs of songs and poetry interwoven with colorful, historical narratives. Historical narrative. That's the aspect we want to focus on today.

David Gordon is, perhaps above all else, a historian. And he's written a book that is so fascinating, so intriguing, The Bach Society has linked it to our own website. You'll want a copy for yourself, I'm sure. So while you listen to David and I talk about it, feel free to wander over to BachSociety.org, click on About, and there you'll find The Little Bach Book.

We talked to tenor, author, historian, and friend, David Gordon, from his home in Pacific Grove, California. 

David Gordon (04:12)
I have always been a history buff, and I'm aware that very often we learn about history by learning the dates of battles and the names of kings. That's a kind of an overstatement, but it's not too far from the truth.

And I've always been interested in how people lived. In olden times, I grew up in a very beautiful area of southeastern Pennsylvania, north of Philadelphia, along the Delaware River in beautiful Bucks County. And my grandparents lived right up the road in a house that was built in 1758. And there was a, there was just tons of 18th-century revolutionary colonial history in the area where I grew up.

And I became interested in daily life. How did they live? How did they cook? I'm sort of interested in that for all eras of history. And  I began to midway through my career, I began to receive invitations to give lectures on Bach and his music, particularly pre-concert lectures for people who are going to hear the music.

And while I talk about the individual pieces of music, I, began to Insert vignettes of daily life that I hoped would give people a greater appreciation for what Bach had to go through to just write his music. What was his daily life like? And  I took in, for example, I have a little 18th-century inkwell and I made some quill pens and I took it in and just set it on the podium.

I didn't mention it until the very end. I was talking about the St. Matthew Passion. And I said, now, you're going to go upstairs now to the concert hall, and you're going to hear this great work written for two choruses and two orchestras and a bunch of soloists and unusual instruments, and it's going to last about three hours.

And I picked up one of the quill pens, and I said, every note you hear was written with one of these and I saw the look in people's eye because Show and tell is better than tell I could have said every note You hear was written by with a with a quill pen or something and people imagine the quill pen in the high school play Which is a long ostrich quill giant.

Ron Klemm (06:41)
Right, right.

David Gordon (06:42)
And, the quill pens that Bach was using and buying in bulk were just feathers out of the left-hand wing of the goose. It's the left-hand wing because that's the one that curls away from the right-handed writer's arm. 

Ron Klemm (06:58)
Oh, really? 

David Gordon (06:58)
Yeah. Isn't that, isn't that this, all this crazy little trivia. 

Ron Klemm (07:01)
So there's, so if you were left-handed, you'd have to get a quill from the other side of the goose. 

David Gordon (07:06)
That's correct. Yes. If you look at a quill, you, if you look at a, at a, at a feather, a goose feather, this is a, the main feather from the wing of the goose and it, it curves in a certain way.

And so you want it to kind of curve away from you. When I began to use props like this, or a fake candle that I had made to, to look like a candle that would have been used in 1720s, I saw the glow in people's eyes that this was fascinating to them, and I believe that it brings us closer to Bach as a human being, instead of just the marble bust on the music teacher's piano.

And of course, people began to say, well, have you written this down? Have you written about this? So I began to do some research into daily life. And one of the first things I did was to buy a wonderful book called Evening's Empire. Which is a story of conquering the night with artificial illumination.

It's a history of artificial illumination. And that led me to the realization of how utterly mind-bogglingly primitive interior home lighting was in Bach's time. Staggeringly surprising that nothing had changed in terms of artificial illumination for thousands of years. 

Ron Klemm (08:28)
Right. 

David Gordon (08:28)
They were still heating, not heating, they were still lighting their homes the way the Egyptians had lit their homes 2, 500 years before.

And that set me on the trail. I thought, I thought, I need to learn more about this. I knew a lot about Bach. There's a lot of vignettes in my book of, of, of his career. And most of them are vignettes that. The Bach aficionados are familiar with. But in between, in the book, I don't discuss any of his music. I talk about his career as a musician and in between what was life like back then.

And the lighting was more than anything what did it for me. And the more I got into it, the more I realized that no one had ever actually written a book exactly like this. Which is a book about Bach, but, but discussing, focusing really on the daily life during his era. And that's a subject that really interests me.

I began to share bits and pieces of what I was writing with the lecture audiences and I saw their enthusiasm. But basically the, the bottom line is what motivated me was the glow in people's eyes when I talked about daily life in Bach's time. It's 300 years ago. I mean, we're, this is the year of the St. John Passion. It was premiered in April, 300 years ago. And that's a long time. How do we reach over? How do we bridge over those gaps? Decades over those centuries and, and meet Johan Sebastian Bach as a career man, an employee. He was an employee all his life. He was not a superstar. He was not wealthy. He always worked for a salary.

He had a large family, which a lot of people know very well. We, we're, we're aware of the 20 children. The details of the lives of the 20 children are filled with tragedy because so many of them died at an early age, 

Ron Klemm (10:33)
Right.

David Gordon (10:34)
What was that like? What was, how did they do the laundry? What did they, what did they eat?

And the more I delved into it, the more fascinated I became and my wife Jenna says that I suffer from something she calls research rapture Which is I don't, I don't, I don't want the research to end because I figured just around the corner if I just Look up this little fragment. I'm gonna learn something else and And This book for me, and in my life as a performer and lecturer, I, I like to find these aha things.

I think, oh, wow, I didn't know that. Wow, that really, wow, that expands my awareness in some way. And then the very next thing is I want to tell that to other people. I like sharing that. I like 

Ron Klemm (11:24)
Yeah. 

David Gordon (11:24)
Sharing things that are a little surprising. And, and in this case, bringing us closer to the humanity of a composer who has been So important to me and in my musical life.

Ron Klemm (11:36)
We're talking to author and tenor and research rat David Gordon, more in just a moment. I'm Ron Klem. This is Bach Talk.

Ron Klemm (12:05)
You talked a little bit about some of the contexts where Bach lived and, and his what things were like around him. Tell us a little bit about. Where he lived. Tell us a little bit about the Leipzig of Box Day. This was a bustling place, wasn't it? 

David Gordon (12:26)
Right. Leipzig was at the intersection of two ancient Roman trade routes.

And from the get go, Leipzig had been a major trade center. And they were big trade fairs there every year, the merchandise flowing north and south and east and west. And when Bach was there, it was a pretty bustling town of about 30, 000 people. 

Ron Klemm (12:51)
Wow. 

David Gordon (12:52)
There was a, it was a, it is, it was and is a beautiful walled city. It is. With wide boulevards and wide streets outside the city gates and beer gardens and beautiful villas. It was a very busy city.

It had around a dozen churches, including the big main churches that Bach was responsible for managing the music in and it was a thriving city because of all the trade.

And it was also a very progressive city. It was one of the first cities to try out streetlights. In the second decade of the 18th century, they were weak, but they were there and they changed, the streetlights changed Europe and it changed the world because it meant that people could go out at night.

It meant they could gather in the burgeoning coffee houses. And there were large, we call them coffee houses now, but that's, they were really restaurants that served wine and beer and sold cigars and sold coffee. So Leipzig was a busy town. Bach had a lot of jobs there. He was in charge of the churches, four churches, two of which he had to deal with personally.

He taught music in this boys' choir school. It was a boarding school for boys and those boys supplied the tenor and alto voices for the church music making. And, the school was a big building, a five story building and Bach's home was one third of that building from the basement to the attic and his home was always bustling and filled with people.

A lot of people lived in the Bach household. His two oldest daughters who were unmarried lived with them, with Bach and Anna Magdalena their entire life. Anna Magdalena's sister lived with them. There were always students and. Other guests there, it was a busy time and,  the town itself was as modern as you could be in the 1720s.

There was a river running by and they they built water wheels and pumps. On the edge of the river to pump water through the town and that pumped water to these various fountains where people would go and collect water and bring it back to their kitchens and boil it before they drank it. It also enabled them to pump water through the storm gutters where people threw all their detritus, their garbage and their human waste.

I have some photos in the book where you can, you can see that these storm gutters. In these broad plazas, you can see these gutters flowing through and people have built little bridges over them to walk over them because they would have been filled with the foulest of stuff. And but 

Ron Klemm (15:54)
Stank to high heaven, I'll bet.

David Gordon (15:56)
Really, yes. The smell of city living was overpowering back then. Yeah. Travelers used to say they could smell Paris before they could see it as they approached the city. And so Leipzig was a little bit progressive in that way.  and that they, you, you did not, you didn't dare drink the water out of the river.

Because all the affluence from these storm gutters were pumping into the river and the people downstream were having polluted water just as probably was being pumped into the, the same coming from upstream from Leipzig. It was possible for Anna Magdalena to go out or one of her daughters or the housemaid they had to go to the fountain, bring back buckets of water, carry them upstairs to the kitchen, which was on the second floor and boil it.

That's why a lot of people drank beer. They drank beer all the time, a weak form of beer because the brewing process killed the microbes in the water. 

Ron Klemm (17:05)
Sure. 

David Gordon (17:06)
And everybody drank beer of every age. There were kegs of beer in the basement of the boys school so that the boys could have their ration of beer every day.

You didn't drink the water. So it was a busy, it was a busy town. There were a lot of coffee houses and bars. Bach for 15 years was a, ran the, sort of the Palm Court Orchestra in Zimmerman's Coffee House. Every Friday night they had concerts there. A lot of his secular works and concertos were premiered there.

He was in charge of all the civic music for funerals and court occasions, and when the elector of Saxony, who was the closest thing to a king came to visit, there was all sorts of celebrations, and Bach was in charge of all of that. He was a music contractor, He was a school teacher who didn't like to teach school.

He was the choir director. He hired other people to teach Latin. He was supposed to teach Latin to the kids and he hired other people. The city council didn't care for that so much. City council didn't think too much of him. No. I think he gave, he was a, as great people are, he, he was demanding and he had high standards and he didn't want to be bothered with teaching Latin and theology to the students.

He wanted time to compose. He hired assistants to do the classroom teaching. He directed the boys and trained them in their singing and managed a music in four churches, two of which he had to be present for personally. 

Ron Klemm (18:37)
Right. 

David Gordon (18:38)
And it was a, it was a job to which. Duties had accrued over the years without any thought for whether or not one person could do it, 

Ron Klemm (18:47)
Right.

David Gordon (18:48)
And he was a very very busy man there and it was a very busy city and he was a big shot Because he was one of the leading musicians of the town 

Ron Klemm (18:56)
Now you talked about how the city didn't like him for this or that or whatever reason And then we're talking about all his church work And, and somebody's listening to this and going, well, wait a minute, what's the, what's the town got to do with the work in the church? But in those days, there was no separation of church and state, was there? 

David Gordon (19:16)
No, no. no, the city council paid him to manage the music in the churches. There was no separation between the two.The churches were part of the city. They were part of the civic life. Of the city. The churches, the St. David Gordon Nicholas and St. Thomas Church, which were, which were his principal churches, each seated more than a thousand people. They were, they are, were and are big churches. They're not little tiny chapels. And he was hired, he was probably one of the greatest keyboard artists of his time, but he had no organ duties.

in the churches. He was the director of music, which means he led the music, but was not the organist in those churches. And he he produced, he had to produce music every week for choir and orchestra. in one of the two main churches, and then of choir music in the other churches. And then there were two lesser churches and those operated with his, under his authority, but without his direct supervision.

He was usually just a few singers to lead the hymns. But there was no separation between church and state as we understand it. He had a series of jobs in his life. Working either for the city council, which meant he was working in churches, or working for royalty. He worked for the Dukes of Weimar, he worked for,  the Prince of Köthen, and the other jobs were all church jobs, and he was paid by the city council.

In a combination in Leipzig, he was paid a combination of cash and bushels of grain and firewood and beer. 

Ron Klemm (21:06)
And housing. 

David Gordon (21:07)
And housing. And housing. Yes, exactly. So the church job was a civic job. He was, his official title was director of music of the city of Leipzig. 

Ron Klemm (21:20)
I want to talk more about that. We have to take another quick break. I'm going to head out a minute and go over to Zimmermann's for a brew. Do you want anything? I'll get you some. Oh, okay. 

David Gordon (21:31)
Yes, please. 

Ron Klemm (21:32)
Okay. Well, in the meantime, don't drink the water. That's that's David Gordon. I'm Ron Klem. This is Bach Talk.

Ron Klemm (21:56)
You start talking about these kinds of things and you know, immediately you make comparisons, fair or unfair.  I had cataract surgery. For example, a couple of years ago, and I was just amazed at how, what they're able to do just miraculous techniques and, and so on. And I was, I was fine in just a couple of days, Bach had cataract surgery.And I don't know, I mean, he was, they blinded him or killed him or what? You tell me. 

David Gordon (22:29)
Yes.  there was this semi-quack English doctor,  who traveled Europe, never staying in one place too long because he had to leave town before they chased him out. And his name was Taylor and he came to Leipzig in the spring of 1750.

David Gordon (22:58)
When Bach was 65 years old and gave his big spiel before the town council about how great he was and all the accomplishments, which mostly were false. 

Ron Klemm (23:09)
Sure. 

David Gordon (23:10)
And Bach had his Bach was suffering from cataracts and was losing his eyesight. He may already have had a minor stroke, but his health was really bad.

Ron Klemm (23:22)
Mmhmm. 

David Gordon (23:23)
And the Chevalier Taylor, as he billed himself, performed the operations in his coach, in the street. And he had an assistant, and the main job qualification for being the assistant of an eye doctor in those days, or a dentist, was upper body strength so that you could hold the patient still while this procedure went on.

I, I touch on the operation a little bit in, in the, in the book, and it was something horrible. It was something that we, it's something that's gruesome, that it's hard to, it's hard to take it in. And Bach was essentially blinded. There was some initial clarity and then the vision faded. There was a follow-up operation that was supposed to take away scar tissue, which probably made things worse.

And his health declined until he was, he was blind. And on the 28th of July of 1750, he passed away. Lying in his bed in a darkened room and where he had been dictating changes in a four-part hymn to his son-in-law. As a footnote, a tragically poetic footnote, just a few years later, the same quack doctor performed the same operation on George Friedrich Handel and blinded him too.

Ron Klemm (24:53)
Unbelievable, isn't it? 

David Gordon (24:55)
Yeah, yeah. 

Ron Klemm (24:56)
The truth is crazier than fiction. 

David Gordon (25:00)
It really is. And I, as a researcher, I love that. I love, I love being surprised. Even if it means that I Have to think differently about something that I thought I already knew. 

Ron Klemm (25:15)
We, there's so much to talk about and I, we want to have you back and talk some more about it, but let me just spin out of what you just said with all the research that you've done. What is it? Research rapture? Is that what, is that? 

David Gordon (25:29)
Yes. Research rapture. 

Ron Klemm (25:30)
What is the most surprising thing that you learned? What is the thing that shocked you the most in going through all of this? 

David Gordon (25:43)
I believe the most shocking area in general, I mean the whole, the history of lighting was surprising to me.

Ron Klemm (25:51)
Yeah. 

David Gordon (25:53)
But it didn't gross me out. But what passed for personal hygiene and cleanliness in the early 1700s in Europe is almost beyond belief. 

Ron Klemm (26:09)
Yeah. Defies logic, doesn't it? 

David Gordon (26:11)
Yeah. For, because the Romans early on had it pretty much figured out there was a history of cleanliness there. There were the baths. There was various types of running water.

And when the Romans had their footprint in Germanic Europe, there were communal baths and there was cleanliness was a thing. After The Black Death, after the plague, because people had no idea where the disease came from and it was thought that the plague was transmitted through this miasma, that was this ineffable substance in the air, that would enter your body through the pores, In your skin.

Therefore, keep your skin pores clogged and you'll stay healthy. And Europe stopped bathing. 

Ron Klemm (27:03)
Oh man. 

David Gordon (27:04)
Yeah. Oh man. And, the one thing we don't get with the fabulous mini-series and movies that depict life in the 18th century is we don't get the smell. 

Ron Klemm (27:18)
No, 

David Gordon (27:18)
We don't get how bad everything smelled, and we don't get how, how this affected everything, including people's health.

And I think that to me was the most surprising thing was, and I never thought as a professional musician and a specialist in the music of Johann Sebastian Bach, that I'd be, Writing a book about Bach and finding the most fabulous and most interesting research sources to be books like The Dirt on Clean, A History of Cleanliness.

Or my favorite was called,  Privy's and WC's: Crapping at the Opera in Handel's London. And it was, it was, it started out as a doctoral thesis and became a published book. And it's basically a book about how the big opera houses dealt with restrooms or the lack thereof. And for us as 20th-century people with hot and cold running water.

We have a beautiful tiled shower, and it's, and I take it so for granted until I read about what people went through then, bathing every, maybe every few months, if that checking for fleas all the time, and I think that to me, I, I, frankly, I could have gone farther into it in the book. It would have monopolized the book because it is the most dramatic part of the story is how far we have come in just a couple of hundred years into something totally and completely different.

Ron Klemm (29:08)
Well, on behalf of everyone who's read the book, I thank you for sparing us that. That pain. 

David Gordon (29:15)
Yeah. 

Ron Klemm (29:15)
Ignorance was not bliss in that, in that case, 

David Gordon (29:19)
No. 

Ron Klemm (29:20)
Knowing, knowing what you know, let me end with this. Knowing what you know and living in a, in a 21st century world, what is today still the greatest misconception about Bach? What is it that we just still don't quite get? 

David Gordon (29:39)
I think there might be a tendency to see Bach as a dower, stern, solemn person.

And I think he was very serious about his art, there's no doubt about that. He was very serious about his religious beliefs. He was a devout Lutheran. But he also was a fun-loving person. And he loved to make jokes. He loved to write music that was, it's not so slap your knee funny to us today, but it was pretty funny back then.

I will also point out that he was a lusty man who had 20 children. And All of this paints up, paints for me, a picture of someone who really loved life, who really lived life to the fullest, ran a busy household with lots of people, was constantly innovating and writing music in new ways. And so they're part of the myth of Bach as he was an old conservative.

No, he was actually very forward-thinking. And he wanted to be upwardly mobile. He, he, he wanted to be a success, but at the same time as his oldest son said, my father's love of his family was so great that he couldn't neglect them and go on to be a, the kind of success that he might've been. 

Ron Klemm (31:22)
Wow. 

David Gordon (31:22)
I think, I think I also realized that. Anna Magdalena was his second wife, and when they met, she had a career as a professional singer. And in marrying him, she gave up that career. She had no children of her own. It was her first marriage. He already had four children. He was a difficult man with four kids to bring up. She must have loved him.

And there must have been something there to love. So I think that my impression of Bach from this long distance Is that he was a, a genius of very high standards and very hard to live with. She loved him. He would never have had the career he had without her. He loved life. He loved to laugh. He wrote the poem about putting tobacco in his pipe and puffing it.

He, he was a, he was a person of vitality and not some, you Stern, Dower schoolmaster, and that's what I hope to continue to preach in my own work is that Bach was a person of great personality. And so is his music. 

Ron Klemm (32:46)
I am always thrilled to talk to you because you always give such great insights and put things in perspective.

Ron Klemm
And we appreciate you so much. So thank you for spending time with us and talking about some of these things. And I hope you'll come back because I've got about 17 cards there that we didn't get to and talk about some more things. 

David Gordon (33:06)
I'm, I'm, I'd be glad to come back anytime. It's I treasure my relationship with the Bach Society of Saint Louis. In n 1972, after coming back from studying in Canada, I made my American concert debut as tenor soloist with the Bach Society of Saint Louis at Powell Symphony Hall. And so to come this full circle from that green beginner more than 50 years ago now to talking with you here, I just love it. I love my association with the Bach Society and I'm really happy to talk with you. any old time, Ron.

Ron Klemm (34:45)
“So schnell ein rauchend Wasser”— as swiftly as roaring water rushes by. So, hurry by the days of our life. Can you relate? The tenor aria from Bach's Cantata 26, David Gordon, in a private recording he made with a student and faculty chamber ensemble from Princeton University.

Remember now, you can order your own copy of The Little Bach Book by David Gordon by simply going to our website, bachsociety. org, click on About, and you'll find the link. For slightly more than a cup of coffee at Zimmerman's, you can enjoy The Little Bach Book. For more information about David Gordon, his past recordings, his current endeavors, visit his website, spiritsound. com. One word, spiritsound. com. In addition to David's music, we also heard from pianist Sandra Geary and the Bach Society Orchestra conducted by music director A Dennis Sparger. Our associate producer is Scott MacDonald. Marketing and technical assistance provided by Andie Murphy and Charissa Marciniak of The Right Relations.

Subscribe to Bach Talk wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more at bachsociety. org. Bach Talk is a registered trademark of the Bach Society of St. Louis. I'm Ron Klemm 

About Episode 7

Don’t miss this insightful conversation with Dr. Stephen Morscheck, a seasoned bass-baritone singer and professor of vocal studies at the University of North Texas. He’s returning to St. Louis to once again sing the role of Jesus in Bach’s St. John Passion. What goes into preparing for such a unique role? He shares insights into the intricate process of embodying characters like Jesus in Bach's compositions, emphasizing the importance of understanding the text, theology and musical nuances. He answers this and more during his conversation with host Ron Klemm.

Episode Transcript

(00:00) Ron Klemm
This is Bach Talk.

A great vocal soloist needs to master many skills. A strong technique is essential, of course. An understanding of the style in which one is singing is just as important. So is charisma and stage presence.

The Bach Society of Saint Louis, for example, finds soloists who meet all of these requirements, but there's more. Most soloists will tell you that they must to some degree Become the very character they are portraying To get inside the skin and mind of the person in order to truly convey them and communicate them properly. It all makes perfect sense, of course, but what about when that character is the son of God?

What happens when one is called upon to sing the words that Jesus himself spoke in the Bible? Words that provide the very foundation of faith for so many. How does one get into the mind of the Savior?

It seems like an impossible task, yet that is exactly what Johann Sebastian Bach demands of a skilled bass soloist in his settings of the gospel passions. Today, we'll put that question and a whole lot more to a man who's been there many times. Stay right where you are for an enlightening, deep, thoughtful, yet fun filled conversation with Dr. Stephen Morscheck.

Ron Klemm (02:51)
Hello, I'm Ron Klemm. Welcome to Bach Talk. Professor of Vocal Studies at the University of North Texas, Stephen Morscheck has seen and experienced more than most. Name a prominent operatic bass role by Mozart, Verdi, or Rossini. Chances are Steve has sung it. Think of the bass solos in sacred choral masterpieces by Handel, Beethoven, and Brahms.

Yep, in the past year he's reprised the main oratorial roles in Haydn's creation and Mendelssohn's Elijah. Experience is the greatest teacher, they say. And Morscheck's concert reviews demonstrate he has learned his lessons well. But perhaps his greatest claim to fame lies in his affinity for Bach and for playing the difficult role of Jesus in the Leipzig Master's setting of the Passion Story, as told in the Biblical Gospels of Matthew and John.

Dr. Morscheck has sung these roles here in Saint Louis several times. Each occasion has brought a rich, fulfilling understanding of the mind and heart of Bach. We chatted with Steve in the Versailles room at the Hilton Saint Louis Frontenac Hotel. With the help of editor Scott MacDonald, we want to share that conversation.

Let's start at the beginning with the beginning. Your early influences, let's start there. 

Stephen Morscheck (04:20)
Sure. I was born in 1959 in Marshfield, Wisconsin. The last of four children to, uh, a pastor. And my mother, his wife, was the church organist and pianist and so forth, so going to church was a huge part of our life.

Stephen Morscheck (04:38)
Music was also an important part of our life because of the fact that my mother played the piano and the organ. She enlisted all four children to be involved in some way. We all studied some instrument at some point during our schooling. I picked up the trombone. That had been left over from my second brother and started making noise with it.

Stephen Morscheck (05:02)
And she said, well, you're going to have to take some lessons. And I eventually ended up playing the trombone all the way through high school. My voice changed a little bit earlier than most of my peers and, uh, my mother began enlisting me to sing little things at church and, uh, encouraged me to also audition for the high school choir.

I could hold my own in terms of singing and so forth and, uh, got all the way my first try into the top choir in my high school. I was the only sophomore and I even got a solo in my sophomore year and that led to getting some of the leading roles in the next two years in the musicals that we did. And so I decided to pursue performing, which I didn't really understand what it was at the time, but I decided to attend college and study singing.

Ron Klemm (05:59)
You decided that, or someone decided for you? 

Stephen Morscheck (06:02)
I did, I don't, I would not say that my, my mother forced me by any means, or encouraged me. By that point, they, they let me decide. And really, that was the strongest interest that I had. And at that point in my life I did have a, I was a, not necessarily a proactive person.

I was reactive. And so that seemed like the, the least path of resistance. I was getting a lot of positive responses from people hearing me sing and so forth. And I did, at that point, believe that maybe the, I had been given some sort of gift in this way and so forth and that it should be something that I should pursue I did have a strong belief in God at that point and recognition that He was sovereign over these things in our lives, I believed, and so that perhaps this was something that he had for me to do.

So I went away to college and studied voice for four years, and when I finished college, I wasn't so sure anymore. 

Ron Klemm (07:05)
And where was that? 

Stephen Morscheck (07:07) 

Wheaton College, outside of Chicago. 

Ron Klemm (07:09)
A lot of influences along those lines, I would think. 

Stephen Morscheck (07:13)
Yes, right. It was a, it's a Christian liberal arts college. Yes, and I received excellent training there. But I also came to a point of, of, uh, having to ask some serious questions about life in general. And I did discover at that point in my life that the way I viewed the world and the way I lived were largely, I think, I would say, second hand, that I had picked up from my parents in terms of being a preacher's kid and what we did in our lives every week and so forth So I took a year I realized during my senior year in college that going on to grad school just because everybody else was doing it was not the thing to do so I took a year off and worked as a janitor the night shift from 11 at night till 7:30 in the morning During that year. I I was searching And I decided, I continued to go to church and so forth, but I believe that God brought into my life certain people, so that I could sort these things out myself. And, uh, make a decision for myself, what I believed about the world, what I believed about the universe, what I believed about our purpose here on life.

And so, I did not walk away from the faith. I embraced it fully as my own. 

Ron Klemm (08:33)
On your own? 

Stephen Morscheck (08:34) And that's how I live my life, no matter if I were a singer, or if I were to be anything else in life. 

Ron Klemm (08:42)
It's very clear to me that you must have immediately had an affinity for Bach and for the works of a person who expressed the deepest parts of his heart and soul through his music. 

Stephen Morscheck (08:59)
That's, that's actually a very profound statement that you have made, because I'll tell you a story. My voice teacher at Wheaton College assigned to me for my senior recital, one of Bach's great solo cantatas for the bass voice. It's cantata 82, Ich habe genug. 

Ron Klemm (09:20)
It's, it's enough. 

Stephen Morscheck (09:21)
Yeah, that's right. That's right. And I learned the whole thing, memorized. All three arias, two recitatives. We did, I did it with piano. So I sang it at modern pitch. I didn't even know what Baroque pitch was back then. 

Ron Klemm (09:34)
Well, no, I still don't, but that's another story.

Stephen Morscheck (09:37) 
And I loved the piece on all the different levels. And apparently, my teacher thought that it really fit me like a glove. Because he said to my mother My mother and father came to my senior recital and he said to my mother, he said something to this effect, that he's heard many people sing Bach, but your son sings Bach, he said. Something to that effect. And he never actually said that to me, that I recall. Something my mother relayed it to me. later on. 

Ron Klemm (10:09)
Well, she didn't want it to go to your head. 

Stephen Morscheck (10:11)
Yeah, probably. But I've always loved it so much. His music has always been, um, I have found it so enjoyable to sing. It's like medicine on my voice in some ways.

But it's also so challenging. It's like mathematics in some ways. And as I've grown older and studied it more in depth and learned more about his life and how he essentially consecrated himself to and dedicated himself to composing music, for the church, for worship. He certainly composed music that is not that way.

Other things that would be considered to be secular. But he, he pretty much focused himself only on composing music for the church. Um, that was my introduction to Bach. 

Ron Klemm  (10:58)
Do you see a parallel between perhaps the greatest church musician of all and the work that you're doing now? 

Stephen Morscheck (11:09)
So as, as a preacher's kid.

Ron Klemm (11:12)
Yeah. 

Stephen Morscheck (11:13)
There was a pretty strong pull to consider being a preacher for my life's work. 

Ron Klemm (11:19)
As opposed to being a church musician? 

Stephen Morscheck (11:22)
Right. 

Ron Klemm (11:23)
Interesting. 

Stephen Morscheck (11:23)
Yeah. And, um, I do want to proclaim, I do want to, to share this what I believe with others, but to be able to do it with also this, singing, there was a germ that began when I was in high school and that I have trained. Ever since I started I have not stopped training I have not stopped learning how to use this instrument as a delivery system for whatever I'm singing whether it's something that is foundational to my faith or whether it's something completely divorced from it, something that's entirely different, but maybe an opera role of a character who is not anything near the part that I'm singing now in this particular piece. 

Ron Klemm (12:06)
And you've done many of those.

Stephen Morscheck (12:08)
Yeah. 

Ron Klemm (12:09) 
How do you approach them? Do you approach them differently? If one is something very meaningful to you and the other is eh, whatever. Do you approach it with the same gusto, with the same earnest, with the same approach?

Stephen Morscheck (12:21)
I endeavor to, yes. I endeavor to. I endeavor to bring everything that I can understand about why this character is the way they are.

What is, what is in their world view? What are, what are their desires? And endeavor to bring that out as I sing, whether I'm on stage or perhaps it's another oratorio for instance, to bring that to its fullest degree. I'll use another example, another oratorio, I've sung it many times, but it's the role of Raphael in Haydn's creation.

So Haydn's creation, in addition to orchestra and chorus, there are three soloists, depending upon how it's cast, there could be another two soloists that come at the end when you have Adam and Eve. But I'm going to be singing both Adam and Raphael. So Raphael is an angel, and he stands up and talks about in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

And then later on, he says, and God made animals. He makes animals, the tiger and the lion and the Haydn is very descriptive. Well, I approach it as if I've never been an angel. Right? But what would it be like to be an angel witnessing this happening out of nothing? There would be great joy. There would be great wonder.

There would be awe. I've never seen a lion before, right? And that's what I try to bring to it as I sing it. It's also very enjoyable to sing the core of what may be going on in the text.

 Ron Klemm  (13:53)
Bass-baritone Stephen Morscheck singing a short recitative from Bach's Christmas Oratorio in a performance by the Bach Society as part of the 2017 Saint Louis Bach Festival. More of our conversation straight ahead. You're listening to Bach Talk.

Ron Klemm  (14:47)
Bach in his Passions uses soloists to convey the, the heart of the matter that's going on, but he also uses characters one, and I'll talk just about the two main ones. One is the evangelist who basically tells the gospel story. The other is the character role of our Lord and Savior. You have sung that with the Bach Society on several occasions.

How does one prepare to be Jesus?

Stephen Morscheck (15:21)
Ultimately you have to go to the text. It wouldn't hurt, rather than just to study the actual passage in the case of the St. Matthew Passion, for instance, Matthew 26 and 27, where that, all that text comes from, but also the greater theology behind what the New Testament, for instance, argues about who Jesus is, that he's fully God and fully man, and that has to be considered when you sing this part.

Stephen Morscheck (15:51)
How did, how can that possibly be shown? Can we even understand that? Right. Then of course, there's the understanding of the music itself. And Bach does this interesting thing. He wasn't the first to do it. But he gives to Jesus a very unique accompaniment. And that is what we would call restitiva accompagnato only with the strings.

Stephen Morscheck (16:17)
And it creates this Aura around everything he says as the piece progresses Again, it's restative. He's speaking. He's just simply speaking his text, but it's not as free as the what the evangelist does it has a it's slightly more metered It's conducted by the conductor and it's consistent all the way through the St. Matthew Passion except the very last thing Jesus says when he's on the cross.

Stephen Morscheck (16:52)
So we have to figure out, well, what does that mean? Why does he do that? I teach a course at the University of North Texas where I'm on faculty there. Uh, so we talk about this piece as, as part of all these, these things. And the text that I use is written by a fellow named Michael Steinberg, and he refers to Bach as an inveterate musical illustrator.

Stephen Morscheck (17:13)
He illustrates what's happening in the text musically. And you can see it time and time again in this piece of St. Matthew. You have to look at the text, obviously. You have to try to gain an understanding of who Jesus is and who Bach thinks Jesus is. Uh, when Bach is composing for Jesus, and the piece is going to be performed, not as a concert piece, not in some orchestra hall, it's going to be performed as part of a church worship experience.

Ron Klemm (17:43)
On Good Friday. 

Stephen Morscheck (17:44)
On Good Friday. What is Bach thinking about it? You have to take all those things into consideration. Getting back to the string accompaniment, some people refer to it as the halo. It does create this sort of aura about Jesus. And if we're not careful, it makes Jesus sound like he's only of heavenly value, like that he has no earthly, he's not, he doesn't have his feet on the ground.

Stephen Morscheck (18:06)
It can very easily, it can become so slow and sustained that you can't relate to this person. The first time I did this work, I did it with Conductor John Nelson, and he challenged me to find the humanity in how I delivered my text. There are moments where Jesus gets very excited about and, and enthusiastic about the Word of God, but then there are times when he's simply speaking to the disciples.

He encouraged me to think of that as being more free. Not quite so slow and sustained and so we played a lot with that and I endeavor to keep that as I do The part now as I sing it that there are places where it moves ahead Where it has a little bit more sense of just every day but you sense the humanity and then there are moments where when Jesus starts talking about certain scripture being fulfilled by what's happening or when he says of this same lady what she has done for me is going to be told Wherever this gospel is preached, and every time the St. Matthew Passion is performed, I'll add that as well, right? That story is told over and over. 

Ron Klemm (19:17)

Of course, over and over. Exactly right. 

Ron Klemm (19:27)
When you are singing about Matters of life and death. The most profound (20:00) texts that you can imagine and deliver them. And your instrument is in your body. The same place where all your emotions and all your, yeah, your soul lives, right? Surely there must be a technique to do that because I get a lump in my throat every time I try to sing something. How do you do that? 

Stephen Morscheck (18:06)
You're nailing it right on the head. That is exactly one of the great mysteries about what we learn to do in this particular style of singing. Which I'll call, I'll call bel canto. Beautiful singing. No microphones. So we're responsible for our own projection. And we have to do, what I believe, and I call, as I teach it, we have to have an open throat.

And what do emotions tend to do to our throats? They tend to close our throats. Literally, we have an expression for it. We get Choked up and the throat, the throat goes into more of a swallowing kind of position where it gets squeezed like that. And when we get up to sing, we have to have our throat open.

So we have to find a way. To have hot hearts, passionate hearts, and cool minds as, as we do this. And that takes hours and hours, years of practice. But that is constantly the challenge that we have.

Ron Klemm (21:57)
The voice of bass-baritone, Stephen Morsheck, singing the words of Jesus in Bach's St. Matthew Passion from a concert by the Bach Society of Saint Louis in the spring of 2023. Straight ahead we'll hear from Professor Morsheck and his approach to teaching aspiring young singers. You're listening to Bach Talk.

Ron Klemm (22:25)
You're a teacher. What attributes do you look for in a young singer? Besides the musical gift and the, and the technique and the moldability that you can, you can deal with, what other things do you look for? 

Stephen Morscheck (22:40)
The biggest thing I look for is what I'll just call thirst. They are not satisfied just being told by me what to do. They have a thirst. To learn something, to explore, and they come in with, I found this piece, Dr. Morscheck, what do you think? Is this something I could do? Versus somebody who simply is content to just be told, do this, do this, do this, and that's all they'll do. Sometimes that, again, can be hard to discern immediately.

But I can think of one, one student that I currently work with, and he was talking about listening to some Beethoven quartet. And this particular phrase within this quartet and how the bassline moved or something like that. And I, and I know that I, I have no idea what Beethoven quartet he's talking about.

And I, and I played jokingly, I said, Oh yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. And then I laughed and then I laughed because. I mean, he's a tremendous example of someone who's very, very thirsty. He, he discovers new music, music that, about, from all different angles. He's not going to be able to sing it all in one lifetime, the kinds of things that he's interested in.

Ron Klemm (24:01)
What is the one thing you wish you could teach some people? 

Stephen Morscheck (24:04)
Oh, my word. Well, the list must be long. No. If you can talk, you can sing. Because, because the same two vocal folds that come together in your throat, in your larynx to vibrate, to produce tone, anything you say, grunting, speaking, okay, if you, if you have the ability to do that, then you have the ability to sing because what singing is, is sustained speech.

Ron Klemm (24:37)
Is there such a thing as being tone-deaf? 

Stephen Morscheck (24:39)
Well, I, I do not have the authority to say no, or yes, either way. I don't know for sure. But I do know that people who I've been, who have come to me and said they're tone deaf, or a student, for instance, that's come in who couldn't match pitch, eventually they were able to learn to match pitch.
It seems to be a coordination of within the brain and the laryngeal nerves. to understand that they, they can match pitch. This particular young man was a rock singer and he came to study music business and he had to have an instrument and voice became his instrument. And I, as the new teacher on the block, he was assigned to me.

And he came in the first day and I started plunking the notes on the piano for him to sing along and he couldn't do it. I was also teaching at that same time, a voice class for non-voice music majors. So your trumpet players, your flutists, your oboists, and so forth, string players, they had to take a voice class.

They took it with me. And they were going to have to be, they were music educators, they were going to be going into schools, and they might become the subject matter voice expert in their school. So I had a local teacher come in who taught junior high choir. And this choir director, Talked about the particular challenges for boys when their voices change when they go through puberty and how their voices change and they oftentimes lose the ability to match pitch and how she solved it.

And she solved it by having them come up to the upright piano, not a grand piano, but an upright conventional piano and stand with their hands on the backside of the sounding board. Really? And she would begin to play simple scales and so forth, and they would feel the vibrations and somehow they began to translate that into their throats and they began to be able to match pitch.

Ron Klemm (26:43)
That's fascinating. 

Stephen Morscheck (26:44)
Not instantaneously, but it works. Eventually. That's what I did with this young man, this rock singer. And by the time he had to do his recital, he was matching pitch and he was able to sing songs where the pitch was independent from the accompaniment. If you can speak, if you can grunt, if you can say, that is a pitch, that is a pitch already.

It's got vibration, vibration by definition is going to have a frequency, right? And all you have to do is then sustain that. That is complicated. That takes an understanding of your breath, right? And, how the throat should feel and science of it. Yeah. And that's what teaching is all about. 

Ron Klemm (27:26)
Yeah. Understanding how that all works. 

Stephen Morscheck (27:28)
That's right. 

Ron Klemm (27:29)
I'd love to, at the end of a conversation, just kind of give you a couple of quick hits. Uh, I don't have one here, but if I had a trombone here and asked you to pick it up, what would be the thing you'd toot on the trombone? What would be the, what would be the first thing you'd play?

Stephen Morscheck (27:46)
That was 40 years ago. 

Ron Klemm (27:47)
Just, just, just guess. 

Stephen Morscheck (27:49)
I do know what I would play. I'm gonna play. Tuba mirum from the Mozart Requiem. 

Ron Klemm (28:04)
My favorite. What piece do you, you cannot live without? 

Stephen Morscheck (28:09)
I've told this to many, many people, St. Matthew Passion. That's, no, that's a no-brainer for me. St. Bach's. St. Matthew Passion. That is my desert Island Peak. 

Ron Klemm (28:21)
If you had to do something else other than teach and perform, what would it be? 

Stephen Morscheck (28:26)
One of two things. I'd go back and I would, I would study history or geology. A different kind of history. Why geology? I've, I've always been fascinated by it. I had a teacher when I was a junior in high school, Mr. Welchon. And he had a huge handlebar mustache. You know, I googled him and he's still living as far as I know.
And he made that topic come alive so wonderfully. He would draw these amazing schematics, cutaways of the sides of mountains, and showing all the various rock layers. And he'd use different colored chalk to show these rock layers, and how this avalanche was caused, and so forth. He made it so interesting and he made it so enjoyable. It's always fascinated me. 

Ron Klemm (29:13)
Well, you've been a joy and, and, and, and a, and a blessing. And, and just a, a great, uh, fun time to sit here and talk with you, so thank you so very much. 

Stephen Morscheck (29:23)
You're welcome. 

Ron Klemm (29:23) 
And we look forward to seeing you again. 

Stephen Morscheck (29:25)
Thank you very much.

Ron Klemm (29:37)
We leave you today as we began: with Grosser Herr, Mighty Lord, from Bach’s Christmas Oratorio. Bass-baritone Stephen Morscheck and the Bach Society Orchestra, conducted by Music Director and Conductor A. Dennis Sparger.

All of our musical portions today were taken from concerts by the Bach Society, as captured by Grammy-award-winning recording engineer Paul Hennerich.

Guests of the Bach Society stay at the Hilton Saint Louis Frontenac Hotel featuring old-world charm at the intersection of comfort and convenience.

Subscribe to Bach Talk wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more at BachSociety.org.

Our Associate Producer is Scott MacDonald. Marketing and technical assistance provided by Andie Murphy and Charissa Marciniak of Right Relations.

Bach Talk is a trademark of the Bach Society of Saint Louis.  I’m Ron Klemm.

About Episode 6

Join us as soprano Michele Kennedy shares her musical journey, the impact of her mentors and where she finds joy in her life. She's sharing her vision for a more inclusive approach to historic musical practices while celebrating underrepresented composers and artists. The episode also touches on Michele's experiences during the pandemic, revealing the positive aspects, new skills acquired and the joy she found in daily practice.

Don't miss this enriching conversation with host Ron Klemm that captures the essence of Michele's joy in the arts.

Episode Transcript

Ron Klemm (00:00)
This is Bach Talk.

The San Francisco Chronicle praised her as an excellent and impassioned soprano, possessing a graceful tonal clarity that is a wonder to hear.

Her name is Michele Kennedy. She first appeared in St. Louis with The Bach Society in 2019. She is a versatile artist, to be sure, specializing in both early and new music. She's a delight to be around, as you're about to discover.

You're hearing that virtuosic soprano aria from Handel's quintessential oratorio, Messiah. Rejoice, greatly. It's an apropos way to describe Michele's approach to life. We talked with her when she was here for that performance with the Bach Society. 

Hello. I'm Ron Klemm. Welcome to Bach Talk. A lot has happened in Michele's life since then.

In the fall, ACES Productions released her first solo album with Agave Baroque, titled In Her Hands, a fascinating collection of music by female composers, past and present. She talked about it, pre-release, in our conversation. And just recently, it was announced that she won the coveted 2023 American Prize for Vocal Performance.

She mentioned in a recent email that she was totally surprised by the news. Me? Not so much, because Michele Kennedy has already demonstrated to St. Louis audiences the passion and grace that has impressed so many. We chatted with Michele in the Versailles room at the Hilton St. Louis Frontenac Hotel. A self-proclaimed shy person, I found her perceptive, well-balanced, profound and thoughtful about music, diversity in the arts and life in general.

We began our conversation by asking Michele to describe life as a child in a contrastingly urban, yet serene, California setting. 

Michele Kennedy (02:47)
I grew up near the big lake in central Oakland, Lake Merritt, in an area that was pretty wooded and we were very near the Redwoods. And I have fond memories as a very, very shy little girl of going up to the Redwoods with my family and going on these little hikes, even as a very tiny person.

I loved the majesty of the woods. I also loved being near the water. So we would go to the beach. We would go to the lake and playing in those natural spaces made a big imprint on me as a kid, I would say. I was very shy. I 

Ron Klemm (03:25)
Now that's hard to believe. 

Michele Kennedy (03:26)
Is it really?

Well, my grandfather, my mother's father, used to play Bach every morning on the piano. He was an organist and a minister. And he noticed, even when I was very small, that I loved listening to him play. So when I was three years old, he offered to give us an upright Yamaha. And, I started my piano lessons when I was still too little for my feet to even touch the ground.

And very, very shy, but I, I began with Suzuki at age three and I still am so thankful for that method because I think, particularly for introverted kids, it gives you this really vivid sensory, impression of the keyboard, spatially, numerically, musically and I just loved getting lost in that world.

By the time I was seven or eight, my parents had to encourage me to practice, not because I wouldn't sit at the keyboard, but because all I wanted to do was sing and not play. 

Ron Klemm (04:31)
Uh oh. 

Michele Kennedy (04:33) 
Uh oh. So, some of those beginner tunes like Red River Valley and Dona Nobis Pacem, I would start playing, which is what I was supposed to be doing.

But I just like singing them, so my parents, being wise people, thought, let's try out a choir. And I joined the San Francisco Girls Chorus. 

Ron Klemm (04:52)
Yes, not just any choir. 

Michele Kennedy (04:53)
Not just any choir. In fact, we tried a few other area choirs, which my mom would say in her diplomatic way, were not a great fit, but the Girls Chorus was and it stuck and it became my second family as a kid.

Ron Klemm (05:10)
Ensemble. You learned early on what that meant and what a group of people with the same goals doing the same thing. Powerful stuff, isn't it? 

Michele Kennedy (05:19)
Very powerful. 

Ron Klemm (05:20)
What is it about choirs that give us this incredible bond? 

Michele Kennedy (05:25)
It's a wonderful question. I think it's a lot of things. I think one aspect of it is.

You learn how to calibrate your voice with others, which is to say you bring what you have to say in your own way, but it's in community. So there's a give and take. There's an innate power of listening. I think that you learn on a lot of different levels of compromise, of discipline. The Girls Chorus has never been short on discipline.

We rehearsed, once I reached the, kind of, pre-professional level, which was at age 11 for me, at least three afternoons a week. So four to six, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday were always Girls Chorus rehearsals. And then in concert weeks, there was more. So I think I just started to get it in my muscles that that's when we worked and that we worked to listen to one another, that we worked to achieve a high bar musically and that we sang in all these languages and for me as such a shy child, my parents would tell you that in my first few concerts, I was too shy to even look up at the conductor. 

Ron Klemm (06:42)
Uh, Michele, that's not a good thing. Promise me that you'll look up to Dennis. 

Michele Kennedy (06:51)
I promise. I've learned, I've learned. I think actually this was a great thing about the Girls Chorus because we rehearsed so often. I started to be at home with my craft and to trust that I had something important to offer. And it drew me a little bit over time out of my introversion, such that I could learn to tell a story on the stage.

Ron Klemm (07:18) 
You, you said your dad was a minister or your grandfather? Grandfather. Did you, did you have the church, music experience singing in church or not so much? 

Michele Kennedy (07:29)
Only a little bit. Ah, interesting. Actually, my dad came up in the Baptist tradition in San Diego. My mom came up in the Presbyterian church and they felt fairly strongly that they wanted their two daughters, myself and my sister, Erin, to find our own way when it came to faith, which is to say, to approach the church when we wanted to. 

So I went, I went several times to different churches. I remember my family went a couple of times to Lakeshore Avenue Baptist Church near Lake Merritt in Oakland and it was this wonderfully diverse Baptist congregation, very of and for and about the community.

And I loved that worship. I loved singing there. I loved hearing what everybody had to say. But I didn't attend church regularly until I was in college. 

Ron Klemm  (08:21)
Which was in?

Michele Kennedy(08:23)
New Haven, Connecticut. 

Ron Klemm (8:24)
At?

Michele Kennedy (08:25)
I went to Yale University. 

Ron Klemm (08:27)
Yes, you did. 

Michele Kennedy (08:27)
And I joined the Choir of Christ Church in New Haven under the direction of one Robert Lehman.

Ron Klemm (08:34)
I've heard of him. 

Michele Kennedy (08:36) 
Who from day one was so many different things in my life. He was a very powerful mentor musically. He was a friend to me and my family. And he remains a pillar in my life of mentorship and goodness and support and, I just, I love his family. We would all have these, dinners after Evensong on Sunday, having had a very full day of work.

We'd go have some homemade deliciousness. Alison Lehman is a fierce cook, a fierce everything. Terrific lady. And, I hold them very dear and the Christchurch choir experience really asked a lot of us musically. I think that the caliber of musicianship that Rob expected was extremely high. So in terms of the rigor of sight reading, especially harmonic nuance, rhythmic nuance and versatility, I learned so much in that job.

Ron Klemm (09:41)
It's a long way from Oakland, California to New Haven, Connecticut and Yale University. How did that come about? 

Michele Kennedy (09:51)
That's a good question. We looked at universities both on the West Coast and the East. My parents were very supportive, although I know, especially for my mom, 3, 000 miles felt like a long ways.

Ron Klemm (10:03) 
You think? 

Michele Kennedy (10:04)
A long ways. But my grandfather, my mom's dad got his doctorate in Chinese and Divinity at Yale and it was beloved in the family. I also had two good friends from the Girls Chorus who were fellow alums and when my mom and I came to tour, they took me around and I just had this feeling about the place like, It's like, I love it here.

I love it here. Not just the Gothic architecture, but the ethos, the openness, the beauty of the place. 

Ron Klemm (10:36)
Makes, makes a lot of sense. It sounds to me that your parents and family were not pushing you into any particular area, a little cubby hole or something like that. That you were able to find yourself. Is that fair? 

Michele Kennedy (10:52)
Mm. It is fair. Okay. It's, it's intuitive of you to say that. I think that openness was very important to both my parents, each in their own way, but they wanted their daughters to feel free. and empowered in our choice-making. I think I did feel spurred on to practice. My mother was very good at that, but definitely, there was a lot of freedom of choice.

Ron Klemm (11:23)
So the moral of the story is encourage, support, but don't, don't be pushy. 

Michele Kennedy (11:29)
But don't be pushy. I will say to your question, one other thing, which is that being that far away from home, I did miss it. I did miss it. I went back often. But the one thing I found in college was that, you know, here I am far from my family, far from my upbringing.

The one constant is. Me, you know, the constant is the woman I'm becoming and it, I think it invited more clarity. It asked more clarity of me in terms of what I wanted and where I was going. 

Ron Klemm (12:02)
Who discovered your talent or put it this way, when did you come to the realization? Oh wow, I could actually do this for a living.

Michele Kennedy (12:13)
No, it's a wonderful question. And I would say, gradually, I think that for me, the mentors in my life have been huge, especially since I was such a shy child and remain, in a lot of ways, a very introverted person. I think, from, my Girls Chorus days. My first voice teacher, Sarah Gans, still a very beloved friend of mine in San Francisco.

She lived right near the Twin Peaks and so we would drive seemingly straight uphill to get to her house for my lessons. And she was and remains a big cheerleader and friend. of mine. I think also that all of my directors in the Girls Chorus, especially Dr. Sharon Paul, who I sang under for all of middle school and high school Susan McMain, who succeeded her and now Valerie Santagat, the current director of the Girls Chorus, they're all beloved friends and mentors of mine who I look up to tremendously.

And I think in college and beyond that my voice teachers have been huge, huge for my sense of self, the scope of my dreams, the kind of tangible steps in daily practice that we need to pursue this as a career, but that being said, Ron. It's a leap of faith every day, honestly. 

Ron Klemm (13:38)
Nerves are a good thing, aren't they? They're, they're motivators. 

Michele Kennedy (13:41)
Yes.

Ron Klemm (13:42)
That's soprano Michele Kennedy. I'm Ron Klemm and this is Bach Talk.

Ron Klemm (13:50)
It's not uncommon for an organization to publish or put on their website, a vision statement. It's not every day that an individual singer like yourself would have a vision statement and publish it. I want to go through it step by step. And, give you a chance to just take a deep dive into these things. You cool with that? 

Michele Kennedy (14:14)
Absolutely. 

Ron Klemm (14:14)
Okay. To fuel artistic dialogue through a contemporary lens on historic practice. What does that mean? 

Michele Kennedy (14:25)
It means several things. One, I'm a Baroque specialist. I adore, as you know, the works of Handel and Bach in particular. And I think in revisiting those masterworks. And those are their contemporaries, both very beloved and visible and lesser known.

That a contemporary lens to me means, how does this music live today? How does it resonate with us today? And also, how can it interface with more contemporary works on the stage? Whether that means juxtaposing period works with works of the 20th and 21st century, whether that means diversifying our canon as we're called to so intensely today and every day, how do we facilitate a dialogue between the established masterpieces of the stage and those that deserve equal recognition but haven't yet received it.

What does that conversation look like? So for me when I say to fuel a contemporary lens on historic practice, I mean, well let's look at this historic repertoire with a modern lens and ask ourselves, who's been included at the table? Who hasn't been included at the table? How can we forge a bridge between the two? 

Ron Klemm (15:52) 
Who hasn't been included at the table? 

Michele Kennedy (15:56)
Well, in broad strokes, female composers, composers of color. I think those who have been marginalized by less fortunate means. 

Ron Klemm (16:08)
Through no fault of their own. 

Michele Kennedy (16:11)
Through no fault of their own, yeah. So I think that for me there's a big calling, a growing calling in my career to be a leader when it comes to those conversations because they're not easy.

They're not easy. We have to develop the vocabulary, we have to find the fluency and there's no way but through that conversation. So that's what I really mean is, I want to continue to bring these vaunted Baroque masterworks to the stage. I adore them with my entire soul. And What does it look like to really diversify the canon? How, how do we forge meaningful tissue between those, those two paths and include more people on the stage? 

Ron Klemm (16:56)
And in a practical way, how are you doing that? Tell me a little bit about some of the, some of the gig that have incorporated that type of approach. 

Michele Kennedy (17:04)
Mmm, of course. Well, I am a member of the Kaleidoscope Vocal Ensemble, which is now I believe in its fourth season, pandemic seasons included.

Oh my goodness. So Kaleidoscope is comprised of Early music and I would say also contemporary music specialists, primarily artists of color, many of whom are known and beloved here at the Bach Society of St. Louis. And our mission is twofold. One, to bring artistic excellence to the stage. Two, to celebrate the voices of artists of color on the stage and in the field more broadly.

So that means librettists, composers, composers. Artists, voices of all kinds. How do we open the door more widely than it may have felt available to us?

Ron Klemm (18:01)
Number two, your vision statement to work with living composers and writers. So who, what, obviously that, that really dovetails into what you just talked about.

Michele Kennedy (18:14)
I love championing the works of female composers and writers in particular. I would say that the main vehicle for that right now is. Lorelai Ensemble, which I debuted with, which I was to have debuted with in 2020. We all know what happened. I had a digital debut with Lorelai Ensemble. And I just love the clarity and boldness of Beth Willer's vision for that group.

So we are currently working with Julia Wolfe on a tour of her world premiere and sort of regional premiere, as it is, in collaboration with several symphony orchestras. It's a co-commission from Nashville Symphony, San Francisco, Boston, Chicago and the National Symphony in D.C. 

Ron Klemm (19:04)
And the piece is called?

Michele Kennedy (19:06)
Her Story. It's a, I want to say a celebration of women's rights, but it's something deeper than a celebration. It's like a tour de force of the story of civil rights. and the fight for women's equal rights in America. It centers the voices of Abigail Adams and Sojourner Truth. Speaking of Bridges, historic and contemporary and it also interweaves derogatory terms that have been used to denigrate outspoken women of all kinds and stripes for generations.

And it, I would say, through Julia Wolfe's minimalist language, it kind of decimates their power. And puts them back together again and the whole piece feels to me like a reclamation of taking up space in a powerful way as a strong group of women. 

Ron Klemm (20:08)
Fascinating. That is terrific. 

Michele Kennedy (20:11)
Thank you. 

Ron Klemm (20:11)
I can't wait to hear it.

Ron Klemm (20:13)
To bring more diverse voices and perspectives to the stage, again you kind of talked a little bit about that. What does diversity look like in the performing arts? Maybe that's a bigger, broader question. 

Michele Kennedy (20:27)
It is a broader question. Well, I think it can look a lot of different ways. I'll give a couple of examples in hopes that that vivifies the conversation, you know, for us and for the listeners.

I think one way is through curating thoughtful programs that have connective human stuff. As their medium. So, for example, I've worked on this program called Cultural Crossroads with a Bay Area-based group called The Gold Coast Chamber Players, also in collaboration with the Alexander String Quartet.

And it is a dialogue about American music through the music of Dvorak, music of Harry Burleyand the music of R. Carlos Nakai. And the central, the foundation of the program is the friendship between Dvorak and Burleigh, which was very real and decades-long and both emotional and musical. So it's about the influence of Czech music on Dvorak, on various Black musical traditions that he interfaced with when he came to America Native American music and also the program centers not just Harry Burley's original compositions and spiritual arrangements, but also the original works of R. Carlos Nakai, wonderful flutist and composer. And it creates a conversation between those three strands, which is to say, what does it look like when our lens on American music brings together Indigenous voices, Black voices, Czech voices, all kinds of voices, but the connective tissue is those relationships.

I think that's one way. I think another way is through the medium of art song, which is One of my favorites, recital work. So for example, I recently have done this recital, sort of like a mini tour. I did a recital with Opera Philadelphia as part of their Sounds of America program. And then I did a recital in San Francisco at St. Mary's church and they, they had some common threads, which were that they interwove different art song traditions and told the stories of. The composers. So the Opera Philadelphia program very much highlighted the work of Margaret Bonds and Florence Price. So their personal stories were at the fore there.

We also integrated some works by Tania Leon, phenomenal living composer, Nkero Okoye, New York-based composer who is on the rise and for a wonderful reason. And the San Francisco recital also interwove works of Pauline Viardot, Mendelssohn, Fauré. Bonds and price and I do think that in, in the recital medium, it's just so, it's so personal because you're just up there with one voice and a few instruments and I, I find it personally important to talk a little bit about each of the composers in the recital context just to vivify their work, who they were. How their music shows us more about their moment in history. 

Ron Klemm (23:42)
And the last thing on your vision statement is to celebrate curiosity and joy in daily practice. That sounds like something we should all do. 

Ron Klemm (23:53)
What makes you curious? What are you most curious about now?

Michele Kennedy (24:01)
I think my sense of curiosity has no bounds. I do wonder because I'm a new mother, in this work. 

Ron Klemm (24:08)
How new?

Michele Kennedy (24:10)
19 months.

Ron Klemm (24:11)
And how's that going?

Michele Kennedy (24:14
Oh my goodness, it's a wonder. 

Ron Klemm (24:16)
Is your mind wandering at this very moment? How's things going at home? It's okay to say yes. 

Michele Kennedy(24:22)
Right. Well my daughter and my husband are always present in my mind and heart.

Audra Mae is, she's a wonder, she's a delight, she is overflowing with curiosity and lightheartedness. And joy. And joy, which to me is It's kind of a revelation in the practice because I've always just been such a serious person. Anybody who's ever sat down with me would not be shocked by that. But I think that intensity and focus and discipline have always come naturally to me and been cultivated in my environments.

But I think that to reclaim our sense of joy every day is not just an act of empowerment, but an act of reclamation of what it means to be alive. What it means to do this amazing art form, to present it, to be on the stage, to share it with our audiences. It's a privilege, it's an honor and I always do well to just have a smile and remember why I love it so much.

Ron Klemm (25:31)
That's the, uh, reserved Michele Kennedy. I'm Ron Klemm and this is Bach Talk. 

Ron Klemm (26:31)
I don't know about you, but I'm, I get weary about talking about the pandemic, but a lot of things happened, not just technologically during that time. Tell me about what positives came out of that for you. 

Michele Kennedy (26:50)
I learned how to record myself at home. 

Ron Klemm (26:53)
Well, I could have taught you that. 

Michele Kennedy (26:56)
Let me tell you, Ron, it was a steep learning curve. The microphones, the backdrops, the lighting. 

Ron Klemm (27:05)
If you have any problems, just give me a call. 

Michele Kennedy (27:07)
I might take you up on that. But I will say that I really learned how to do it. And I was very clumsy at first, then I got better. That was one thing. I also, I started an indoor garden and I have more herbs growing at home than I ever had before.

I think that was very comforting to me. I'll bet. To have just some living stuff to take care of. 

Ron Klemm (27:31)
It's life, exactly. 

Michele Kennedy (27:32)

IIt's life. And especially if you're in your home month after month, there's a real risk of monotony and I think that tending to growing things. was a beautiful aspect of my life in the pandemic.

I think the other big learning for me was taking myself back to school. All of these summer festivals, masterclasses went online. I took a Feldenkrais workshop that I never would have been able to go to in person. A what? Feldenkrais. I've done more Alexander technique in my personal history as a singer and, you know, as an artist, but I wanted to learn more about Feldenkrais as a movement philosophy and I loved this workshop and I still almost every day use things I learned from it. 

Ron Klemm (28:29)
How about that?

One of the things I noticed was that you, you step back and you realize what the important things in life are. Did you have that experience too over that time? 

Michele Kennedy (28:42)
Yes. 

Ron Klemm (28:43)
And what are those?

Michele Kennedy (28:44)
The essentials. Health. Home. Love. Family. That was, I love that you brought that up because that, that was the deepest learning is, you know, what is the bedrock of my life? (29:00) The people I love most, the places that I hold dear and my love of singing. I would go in our old apartment We had this big laundry room in the basement with great acoustics and it was almost always empty It looked out on a garden and I would go there every day Whether or not I had a recording project and I think it also infused in me the love of practice Because I thought you know, we're really used to extrinsic motivators, right? Master classes, concerts. We don't have any of those So what is my motivation? Do I still want to do this? I would ask myself. And I found that I would go down to our laundry room every day and kind of fall in love with the craft of singing just for its own sake. And that was a really wonderful thing.

Ron Klemm (29:55)
Then let me ask you this. If you couldn't sing (30:00) anymore, what would you want to do in life? 

Michele Kennedy (30:04)
I think I would still want to mentor aspiring musicians. Talk about what this career asks of us. Talk about artistic mission and purpose. I also think I would focus on bodywork. Yoga, Pilates, movement, particularly for young women.

Michele Kennedy (30:26)
I think it's very freeing to learn psychosomatically, to learn and cultivate a sense of fully embodied presence in this world, in what you have to say. And to not make apology for your presence. And so I think I would want to work on that, that combination. Mentorship and embodiment in daily practice.

Ron Klemm (30:53)
What's interesting is in the, in the entirety of our conversation so far, something has not come up. You double majored as a, as an undergrad in music, but also in poli sci. 

Michele Kennedy (31:06)
Mmhm.

Ron Klemm (31:07)
So let me ask you this, I'll get you going. If you were the mayor of Oakland or St. Louis or any major city, what would be on your agenda? What would be the first thing you'd want to try to do? 

Michele Kennedy (31:25)
Infuse a deeper connection between. I think I would want to center environmental education much more, which is to say, what are our natural spaces? How do we celebrate them? How do we preserve them? I think I also would want to work on intercultural dialogue, intercultural spaces, creative spaces. I think that placemaking has everything to do with whether people feel they belong in a place or not.

And so in a civic space, it's like, well, how do we help to galvanize and empower people? Not just so that they vote, but so that they feel that they belong. And I think I would want to cultivate civic spaces, educational spaces, places of public gathering that feel safe, clean, like they celebrate the natural world and like they invite absolutely everyone to the table.

Ron Klemm (32:28)
Well, I'd vote for you. Oakland A's or San Francisco Giants? 

Michele Kennedy (32:35)
Oh, Oakland. Oakland all the way. Although, I have to say, I would go NBA. 

Ron Klemm (32:41)
Oh, really? 

Michele Kennedy (32:42)
My dad cultivated in me a love of the NBA from girlhood and so, the Warriors, the Warriors. Yeah, 

(32:49) Michele Kennedy okay, I'll give you that. In St. Louis, we don't have a pro-NBA team, so we don't get that option.

Ron Klemm (32:56)
After a long rehearsal, or a performance day, (33:00) long day, you're tired, you get home kick your shoes off. What do you do? What do you do to relax? What's the thing that relaxes Michele Kennedy? 

Michele Kennedy (33:11) 

I like to have a quiet snack. With my husband Benjamin. 

Ron Klemm (33:17)
Shout out! GoBe Benjamin. 

Michele Kennedy (33:19)
Yeah, yeah. We like to have cereal. It's very glamorous.

We like to have cereal. We like to have popcorn. Maybe watch a show. Maybe just sit on the couch. I think I like stillness and quiet. Because my life has such an abundance of music that for me, unwinding is almost always quiet. Just a chance to kind of breathe and enjoy the peacefulness of our home space. That makes me happy. 

Ron Klemm (33:49)
Gives you joy. 

Well, we all know the desert island question. Let me rephrase it for your context, okay? (34:00) You, you get to the pearly gates and St. Peter greets you and welcome, Michele. So thrilled you're here, but you know, we've been talking to the cherubim and the seraphim and they would like you to sing your way in. What's the piece you sing? 

Michele Kennedy (34:18)
I love from Cantata 151, Süßer Trost. I love that aria. That's a candidate. I will tell you that also the Poulenc Gloria, which I was so honored to sing with the Bach Society of St. Louis in 2019. Is one of my favorite pieces in the universe and if I could sing one of those arias, I would.

Ron Klemm (34:44)
I can't wait. Although we will wait. 

Michele Kennedy (34:50) 
Hopefully, I've got a few years yet. 

Ron Klemm (34:54)
We've got other things to do in the meantime. Thank you so much for spending time with us. You are a joy to be with. 

Michele Kennedy (35:02)
Thank you, Ron. It's been a total pleasure. 

Ron Klemm (35:03)
Rejoice greatly, how about that? 

Michele Kennedy (35:04)
Absolutely, every day.

Ron Klemm (35:59)
Just the final portion of Domini Deus Rex Celestis from The Gloria. by Francis Poulenc in a performance by the Bach Society of St. Louis in December 2019 at Powell Hall. The soloist? Soprano Michele Kennedy in her first appearance with the Bach Society. Musical portions today featured Michele with the Bach Society orchestra and chorus conducted by music director and conductor A. Dennis Sparger. Be sure to check out Michele Kennedy's new recording, In Her Hands, with the Agave Ensemble, available from Asus Productions. For more information, visit agavemusic.org.

Guests of The Bach Society stay at the Hilton St. Louis Frontenac Hotel, featuring old-world charm at the intersection of comfort and convenience. Subscribe to Bach Talk wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more at bachsociety.org.